I don't have an answer to this but I feel the expensive recipe option is a little too extreme at the moment. I love the idea of slowing things down and having bigger builds, without necessarily just building more per sec/min so I was keen to try it out but some of the ratios get crazy.
To feed 1 science per sec (for comparison) you need just under 6 blue belts of iron alone - and that assumes you import all 3 circuit types and steel, rather than make them locally.
To feed a single blue belt of green circuits, you need 5 blue belts of copper and 2 blue belts of iron.
So far I would have a main buss of 14 blue lines and only be outputting 1 blue of green circuits and would still not have achieved 1 per sec science (would need more lines again to feed the other circuit types, steel, etc. for the later science packs).
So I like the idea but I think that much smaller increases would be a better balance, at the moment it's almost impossible to actually build any sort of efficient factory, the scale for even the most basic things is just so high. The size isn't the issue so much, it's the fact that the logistics become unreasonable. To have a main buss that wasn't totally consumed by science, you need (roughly) 12 blue belts of iron (and that still won't fully feed a factory, lots of stuff will just get materials based on other's reaching stock pile limits and stopping to allow lines to back up). The amount of ore that takes means you end up spending most of the game just tapping new deposits and never building the factory (or building up the factory while it grinds to a stop) and that really kills the fun a bit for me. Bear in mind, you need all that again for copper!
0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
No offense, but it really seems like you need to try new ideas / bigger scale factories before playing on Marathon / Deathworld. Maybe the game should place better disclaimer in the game, but the setting itself is fine.Utterbob wrote:So I like the idea but I think that much smaller increases would be a better balance, at the moment it's almost impossible to actually build any sort of efficient factory, the scale for even the most basic things is just so high. The size isn't the issue so much, it's the fact that the logistics become unreasonable. To have a main buss that wasn't totally consumed by science, you need (roughly) 12 blue belts of iron (and that still won't fully feed a factory, lots of stuff will just get materials based on other's reaching stock pile limits and stopping to allow lines to back up). The amount of ore that takes means you end up spending most of the game just tapping new deposits and never building the factory (or building up the factory while it grinds to a stop) and that really kills the fun a bit for me. Bear in mind, you need all that again for copper!
As for hints how to cope with the scale:
Logistic bots scale much better in terms of build time and maintenance. Just make a few thousands of bots, leave a little room between factory blocks and put more (even dozens more) roboports in places which seem like bottlenecks.
Or separate factory blocks entirely and connect them with trains. Each base can use belts / bots as you'd like.
EDIT: productivity modules 3 everywhere also make everything MUCH cheaper. /EDIT
Mining expansion does get more tiresome as scale increases, but using standardized blueprints makes it pretty fast. For faster setup use logistic bot transportation between miners and train loaders.
Also, 0.13 buffed large scale mining with increasing richness of deposits further away from starting point. 0.15 buffed that mechanic, and introduced mining productivity, which improves it even more.
In other words: it's ok, you'll just need to learn a few things . . . but learning stuff in factorio is fun
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
No offence but you completely missed the point. Before making insanely patronising comments did you not stop to think I had enough experience to calculate those resource demands in terms of item-per-second belt throughputs? Sure, not hard maths but not something novices tend to be doing.
My .14 factory produces well over a million iron per SECOND, if all smelters are running and allows almost no intermediate items to be made locally (as a self-imposed arbitrary challenge). More trains than I care to count move items around the base from one module to another... I am more than familiar with efficient builds, complex builds and extremely large factories. The only reason I stopped playing that map is the UPS ground to halt due to the factory being too big.
Now, if you have a valid point busied on a constructive argument, like calculations, fine. Personal insults and patronising comments towards people who you happen to not agree with has no place.
Yes, bots are more efficient and their use delays this problem but how exactly do you make quantifiable comparisons with that? With difficulty! Using belts makes the scale immediately obvious and provides an obvious point of reference.
Yes mining productivity also mitigates some of the problem but to really 'solve' it takes getting into the infinite research, which is not good balance.
Separating bases doesn't do anything to address the problem, absolutely nothing at all, since the problem is scaling bottlenecks with available resources.
Prod 3 is a pretty late tech, see point re. mining productivity.
The scaling of richness helps, doesn't solve. I have gone more than far enough, in my current game, to test this for myself.
To make the point completely clear, as I have to assume it wasn't, the issue is not the size of the factory you need to build up. The number of belts you would need forces bots, which is not, in my opinion, great design, especially when you have members of the Dev team specifically saying they don't like the bots much and would prefer players to at least have a choice. Secondly, it shifts the demand on player time to a ratio that is mostly just tapping new resources, even if you have efficient ways to build them, you still need to be out looking near-constantly. Mods can help mitigate this further but again, reliance on mods isn't really a good design choice, hence giving feedback to make the base game as fun as it can be.
One example of a solution might be increasing both time and cost of some intermediate items (but not as high as it is now). For example, 'expensive' changes the ratio of copper wire to green circuit assemblers from 1.5/1 to 5/1. This forces bigger builds (which is good and very much the point) but also means that far fewer green circuit assemblers can be supported by a belt (or x belts) of copper - again, not an issue inherently, just an issue (in my opinion) because it forces bots to get decent outputs or unreasonable numbers of belts and then requires scouting and tapping copper constantly to get a late-game factory to operate smoothly. A smaller increase in copper cost but a slow down in the wire production speed could still be tweaked to have a 5/1 ratio for the build scaling but require far more sane amounts of copper input (that would still be much higher than default values). This would achieve better balance of player time demands as well as leaving the options for both bots and belts open.
My .14 factory produces well over a million iron per SECOND, if all smelters are running and allows almost no intermediate items to be made locally (as a self-imposed arbitrary challenge). More trains than I care to count move items around the base from one module to another... I am more than familiar with efficient builds, complex builds and extremely large factories. The only reason I stopped playing that map is the UPS ground to halt due to the factory being too big.
Now, if you have a valid point busied on a constructive argument, like calculations, fine. Personal insults and patronising comments towards people who you happen to not agree with has no place.
Yes, bots are more efficient and their use delays this problem but how exactly do you make quantifiable comparisons with that? With difficulty! Using belts makes the scale immediately obvious and provides an obvious point of reference.
Yes mining productivity also mitigates some of the problem but to really 'solve' it takes getting into the infinite research, which is not good balance.
Separating bases doesn't do anything to address the problem, absolutely nothing at all, since the problem is scaling bottlenecks with available resources.
Prod 3 is a pretty late tech, see point re. mining productivity.
The scaling of richness helps, doesn't solve. I have gone more than far enough, in my current game, to test this for myself.
To make the point completely clear, as I have to assume it wasn't, the issue is not the size of the factory you need to build up. The number of belts you would need forces bots, which is not, in my opinion, great design, especially when you have members of the Dev team specifically saying they don't like the bots much and would prefer players to at least have a choice. Secondly, it shifts the demand on player time to a ratio that is mostly just tapping new resources, even if you have efficient ways to build them, you still need to be out looking near-constantly. Mods can help mitigate this further but again, reliance on mods isn't really a good design choice, hence giving feedback to make the base game as fun as it can be.
One example of a solution might be increasing both time and cost of some intermediate items (but not as high as it is now). For example, 'expensive' changes the ratio of copper wire to green circuit assemblers from 1.5/1 to 5/1. This forces bigger builds (which is good and very much the point) but also means that far fewer green circuit assemblers can be supported by a belt (or x belts) of copper - again, not an issue inherently, just an issue (in my opinion) because it forces bots to get decent outputs or unreasonable numbers of belts and then requires scouting and tapping copper constantly to get a late-game factory to operate smoothly. A smaller increase in copper cost but a slow down in the wire production speed could still be tweaked to have a 5/1 ratio for the build scaling but require far more sane amounts of copper input (that would still be much higher than default values). This would achieve better balance of player time demands as well as leaving the options for both bots and belts open.
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Very mathematical argument.Utterbob wrote:Yes mining productivity also mitigates some of the problem but to really 'solve' it takes getting into the infinite research, which is not good balance.
Train bottlenecks are solvable, and honestly I haven't seen anyone running into unsolvable throughput problems with trains.Utterbob wrote:Separating bases doesn't do anything to address the problem, absolutely nothing at all, since the problem is scaling bottlenecks with available resources.
So you're arguing about mid game or what?Utterbob wrote:Prod 3 is a pretty late tech, see point re. mining productivity.
No contradiction there, right?Utterbob wrote:The scaling of richness helps, doesn't solve. I have gone more than far enough, in my current game, to test this for myself.
...
you still need to be out looking near-constantly.
And as for belts vs bots: in 0.14 there were 10-15RPM bases made with trains + belts. Unless you're arguing that you should be able to make them even with expensive settings, or that even normal gameplay is affected in expensive mode (which would mean it effectively made things 100 times more expensive, which it clearly has not), there is not much argument in your posts. Is it hard? Yes. Is it too much? Very subjective. When many people enjoyed even bigger challenges (RPM bases) or harder settings (actual Marathon mod, which had science multiplicator 5x and at the same time 2-10x more expensive items) I am inclined to say pretty irrelevant opinion. Sorry for snarky tone, but "make valid argument based on calculations" followed by "but it's too hard!" is hard to take seriously.
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Wait, what? 1000000 iron per second, 25000 blue belts?Utterbob wrote:My .14 factory produces well over a million iron per SECOND
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Even 1 Million per Minute would be ridiculous 416.66 blue belts. Can't believe it until I see that factory with my own eyes.Dimanper wrote:Wait, what? 1000000 iron per second, 25000 blue belts?Utterbob wrote:My .14 factory produces well over a million iron per SECOND
1 Million per Hour would be 6.9 blue belts... that seems more realistic.
That said maybe he's playing with mods...
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
How many football fields worth is 416,66 blue belts for size comparison? 
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Just under 4 football fields (is the factorio tile canonically 1 meter?)aober93 wrote:How many football fields worth is 416,66 blue belts for size comparison?
On the other hand, the original claim (1e6/second) = 25000 belts = 25km = the width of a medium-sized city...
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
So...Correct me if I am mistaken but Utterbob asks for advise about a problem, and someone responds in tow with a valid answer and solutions to said problem, in a very polite and logical nature and then Utterbob...well for a lack of any other way to put it, turns 14 again and throws a temper tantrum and shows us truly how little he knows about the game by attempting to make it look like he knows more about the game than the person offering advise. Can anyone say Douche? Ignored... Sorry but it is people like that that utter ruin forums and makes it so others who have knowledge to give usually don't take the effort to try to help people.
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Deadly-Bagel
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Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
lmao how would you even get the deposits for a million iron per second. Even a 5 million ore deposit would be gone in 5 seconds! I guess 6.5 if you used prod mods. Then there's the 571,000 furnaces (or equivalent with modules) required to smelt it. I do however find the "No offence but I took offence for no reason" logic amusing.
It's a logistic problem. You can't just beat it with the same tired old solutions, it doesn't work because it doesn't scale. The majority of Iron going into science is in the form of Steel or Iron Gear Wheel, one way to solve this is to have production of these directly from the furnaces and then transport those to science (belts or bots), as they have a higher iron density per unit.
It's a logistic problem. You can't just beat it with the same tired old solutions, it doesn't work because it doesn't scale. The majority of Iron going into science is in the form of Steel or Iron Gear Wheel, one way to solve this is to have production of these directly from the furnaces and then transport those to science (belts or bots), as they have a higher iron density per unit.
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
I'm having a lot of fun with expensive recipes and feel really positive about the challenges it poses. Everything I achieve feels hard-earned but fun. It feels like a genuine high difficulty, and really refreshes the game. It encourages me to build bigger, and be less lazy, and I suspect I'm going to end up with a megabase by necessity.
You have to rip up the rule book; a lot of received wisdom no longer holds. Generally, a megabase can't rely on a single main bus and needs trains between sub-factories, and I think the same holds true with expensive recipes. The very fact that standard belt buses can't solve the expensive logistics problem is a great thing. I'm no fan of such an easily repeated design -- don't get me wrong I use belt buses but not exclusively because they aren't much fun once you've done it once. I know of at least one dev who actually hates them -- see V453000's album which he posts from FFF-187.
I also suspect that if the recipes were only a bit more expensive, then it would be just more tedious than the default settings rather than a significant game-changer. For this reason, I'm not sure it would be a good idea even to introduce an intermediate recipe setting between normal and expensive. Instead, for those who just want to slow down the game, I suggest to increase the tech cost and go railworld -- but use normal recipes. This is already possible, so it has the benefit that it requires no work needed by dev team
You have to rip up the rule book; a lot of received wisdom no longer holds. Generally, a megabase can't rely on a single main bus and needs trains between sub-factories, and I think the same holds true with expensive recipes. The very fact that standard belt buses can't solve the expensive logistics problem is a great thing. I'm no fan of such an easily repeated design -- don't get me wrong I use belt buses but not exclusively because they aren't much fun once you've done it once. I know of at least one dev who actually hates them -- see V453000's album which he posts from FFF-187.
I also suspect that if the recipes were only a bit more expensive, then it would be just more tedious than the default settings rather than a significant game-changer. For this reason, I'm not sure it would be a good idea even to introduce an intermediate recipe setting between normal and expensive. Instead, for those who just want to slow down the game, I suggest to increase the tech cost and go railworld -- but use normal recipes. This is already possible, so it has the benefit that it requires no work needed by dev team
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iceman_1212
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Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
the one part of expensive recipes that feels slightly is the Blue Science pack, primarily because of the electric mining drill, which is made more expensive, and which requires both gears and green circuits, which are also made more expensive. it felt as challenging to supply with resources as the production pack. what do you guys think?
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NorwegianBlue
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Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
Deathworld... Blue Science... i built a nice little 10 assembler sushi belt for blue science. "Let's start small, we can extend later or build another," I thought.
Hours later... still opening more and more iron mines to feed this beast and still not even close to satisfying it's seemingly insatiable appetite.
So much fun with this game and i'm only 2000 hours in.
Hours later... still opening more and more iron mines to feed this beast and still not even close to satisfying it's seemingly insatiable appetite.
So much fun with this game and i'm only 2000 hours in.
Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
I'm just about feeding 6-7 each of red/green/blue science assemblers at 15-20 hours in. This is giving an OK rate of research discoveries even with x4 tech costs in my opinion. I think it is best not to try to match a normal game for science output, until perhaps late game. Instead, you can enjoy more gradual growth in new technologies; with default settings I find I research faster than I can use new tech anyway.iceman_1212 wrote:the one part of expensive recipes that feels slightly is the Blue Science pack, primarily because of the electric mining drill, which is made more expensive, and which requires both gears and green circuits, which are also made more expensive. it felt as challenging to supply with resources as the production pack. what do you guys think?
For sure though, I now need to expand, maybe set up a second rail line of iron ore/smelting so I have iron ore to do other things. One train with 4 cargo wagons loading/unloading just isn't enough throughput, though perhaps I just need stack inserter bonuses. EDIT: actually, I just needed to improve my unloader belt balancing.
In any case, I think rail is a necessity in this mode.
Are you playing on railworld resource settings? I wonder if Marathon should have more railworld-like settings? I think it is fun with expensive recipes to expand on a rail world, whereas perhaps a normal world means relocating mines too often because you need so many resources.
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Re: 0.15 Expensive Recipie Balance
+1 to the idea, if you don't like combat / space shortage, that would be way to play Factorio on Very Hard.H8UL wrote:Are you playing on railworld resource settings? I wonder if Marathon should have more railworld-like settings? I think it is fun with expensive recipes to expand on a rail world, whereas perhaps a normal world means relocating mines too often because you need so many resources.
I play on deathworld, and resources are fine - I'm switching to bots for mining currently, and they solve the resources-are-too-spread issue very nicely as usual. Space is very limited though, pushing me to expand even more.