Solar panels less of a no-brainer

[Hexicube]

Mostly die hard addicts posting around here. Addicts who are most likely pushing the game to one extreme or an other with their play style.

If anything, the longer players have more insight to see problems with mechanics, as they have more experience using said mechanics. A lot of people end up using solar power because it's just simpler and easier compared to using boilers, myself included. Space being the limiting factor isn't really enough, as most of the time you can just expand and solar panels / accumulators are incredibly flexible (they can be put anywhere) and need no infrastructure. Boilers on the other hand require a nearby water source and a fuel to burn, and the steam engines either need to be placed adjacent to the boilers or have the hot water piped in from the boilers.

I've pointed this out before, but I think solar panels aren't the cause of the issue, and that it's accumulator spam to make enough of a buffer to last the night causing the boring gameplay with solar panels. There should be temporary degradation to counter this (a form that require interaction or automation to go away), so that solar solutions are interesting. Solar panels are actually still interesting when used as a supplement, as you could make enough solar panels to power fuel production for boilers (that is used during the night) so that you don't need coal.

[korda]

Its seems stupid that there is a power solution that, once you have it automated one time, is effectively the last bit of non-trivial gameplay you do in that entire resource (power).

I'm afraid that there are lot of things in this game that become trivial after you automate them. In fact I believe that automating everything to the point where something becomes trivial is purpose of this game

It seems especially stupid that this method offers EVERY advantage except cost over its alternative. I do think the main problem is accumulators (which are also wholly unrealistic) rather than the panels themselves, however. A base which needed solar (day) AND coal (night) would be a deeper outcome.

It wouldn't be deeper... How it would be deeper? Why would you want solar panels if you can just produce all energy with steam engines? Because coal or fuel? But aren't they infinite anyway, as people point out when told that solars aren't cheap? (somehow cost to produce something is treated as unimportant by a lot of people in this thread, while upkeep cost, even if not meaningful is magically interesting and important)

Perhaps reduction of pollution is some kind of argument, but still defending your base from biters is not really that hard.

I actually dont think the game would lose much by getting rid of accumulators entirely and replacing it with some kind of solar-heating system which could be used to heat liquid during the day and use it to run your steam engines at night.

It would just mean that building power plants where you need them is no longer feasible and it's better to just generate power in main base / dedicated outpost and then put electric lines all over the map and pray that biters won't attack them (they do kinda ignore them unless they bump into them, right?). At least thats what I would do if I wasn't able to build my solar plants.

[Hexicube]

It seems especially stupid that this method offers EVERY advantage except cost over its alternative. I do think the main problem is accumulators (which are also wholly unrealistic) rather than the panels themselves, however. A base which needed solar (day) AND coal (night) would be a deeper outcome.

It wouldn't be deeper... How it would be deeper? Why would you want solar panels if you can just produce all energy with steam engines? Because coal or fuel? But aren't they infinite anyway, as people point out when told that solars aren't cheap? (somehow cost to produce something is treated as unimportant by a lot of people in this thread, while upkeep cost, even if not meaningful is magically interesting and important)

Perhaps reduction of pollution is some kind of argument, but still defending your base from biters is not really that hard.

There's a couple benefits to a hybrid system:
1. Reduced pollution during the day (which could mean vastly reduced attacks if it pulls pollution back enough).
2. Reduced running cost during the day (or even none if you have enough solar power to produce solid fuel for the night).

It would be considerably deeper on the grounds that you either still need some upkeep (so it would be as interesting as steam power), or you need a separated power grid exclusively for making fuel (making it a bit more interesting than basic steam power).

The issue with solar panels when combined with accumulators is that you get a highly flexible system, that system needs 0 upkeep (unless attacked), and does not need to be connected to anything other than power poles (including the other parts of the system). There's just nothing you can do to make the system function how you want it, you simply put down X panels for Z power and Y accumulators to handle the night.

[Koub]

tbh that's what you basically do with all the rest of the game : fiddle some hours until you find a layout that suits you, blueprint it, and after it's just click, click, you're done.
Why should energy production be so different ?

[Lallante]

tbh that's what you basically do with all the rest of the game : fiddle some hours until you find a layout that suits you, blueprint it, and after it's just click, click, you're done.
Why should energy production be so different ?

Every other chunk of the game, once automated, leads on to harder challenges. Once you've automated solar/accumulator production and BPd a layout, thats it. The entire "energy" side of the game is over for all intents and purposes.

[korda]

tbh that's what you basically do with all the rest of the game : fiddle some hours until you find a layout that suits you, blueprint it, and after it's just click, click, you're done.
Why should energy production be so different ?

Every other chunk of the game, once automated, leads on to harder challenges. Once you've automated solar/accumulator production and BPd a layout, thats it. The entire "energy" side of the game is over for all intents and purposes.

As said earlier: don't make game more complicated early-mid just because you need some challenges that should come in late game.

I don't know how late game will look, when it's ready but I do hope it will involve nuclear energy. Why would you need nuclear energy when you have solar panels? - perhaps energy requirements for late game stuff would be order of magnitude higher. Since late game stuff is not nearly ready, balancing panels for late game is kinda useless... (and I do hope there will be more stuff coming and current late game is more or less placeholder)

[Hexicube]

As said earlier: don't make game more complicated early-mid just because you need some challenges that should come in late game.

Actually, this issue happens around mid-game. I've never properly made it to end game yet (mostly because I enjoy the early parts more), and solar energy is both a blessing and a curse. It's way too easy to just forget about power issues unless you're expanding a lot.

[Lallante]

tbh that's what you basically do with all the rest of the game : fiddle some hours until you find a layout that suits you, blueprint it, and after it's just click, click, you're done.
Why should energy production be so different ?

Every other chunk of the game, once automated, leads on to harder challenges. Once you've automated solar/accumulator production and BPd a layout, thats it. The entire "energy" side of the game is over for all intents and purposes.

As said earlier: don't make game more complicated early-mid just because you need some challenges that should come in late game.

I don't know how late game will look, when it's ready but I do hope it will involve nuclear energy. Why would you need nuclear energy when you have solar panels? - perhaps energy requirements for late game stuff would be order of magnitude higher. Since late game stuff is not nearly ready, balancing panels for late game is kinda useless... (and I do hope there will be more stuff coming and current late game is more or less placeholder)

You seem to hate complexity, but its the single best selling point of this entire game.

[korda]

You seem to hate complexity, but its the single best selling point of this entire game.

I don't hate complexity. But I also don't believe that more is always better, especially when you are still getting grasp on things. Solar panels weren't easy for me when I was starting to play the game (it took me time to find correct number of accumulators, with some problems with defense when I run out of power in the middle of night - before I only needed to care if I have enough power right now, without the need plan too much ahead). They are easy now though (but steam engines are also easy now...).

Now I would like to have something more complex to solve when it comes to power generation. But that's now. Not back then when I was starting. Not when I reached it tech tree.

Of course, panels could be moved further in tech tree, but then again it was the time I needed to start building distant outposts without nearby water (I was a bit out of luck on map generation) and panels were very handy then.

But I believe that either we need some other power generator along the way (if panels would be put further into tech tree and made way more complex) or simply some late game power source that's complex enough to satisfy people looking for a but of challenge.

Also I don't believe you know what's the best thing in this game for everyone...

[Lallante]

I think a dirty diesel generator would work for remote outposts as you'll have oil by then

[ShadowTheAge]

I dislike current energy system because it is complicated at the beginning and too easy to the end-game. And also the whole liquid temperature has little use.
My suggestion is to make like this:
- early game: steam engine - supply by water and coal, boils water, generates electricity from steam energy. Water is wasted. You can supply warmer water to increase energy generation (less time to boil -> more steam generated -> more energy over same time).
- early game: boiler (current functionality, but is optional, more uses later)
- early game: disposal pipe (you can dispose any liquid into water, but disposing anything but water generates huge amount of pollution. Can be used to dispose water of unwanted temperature)
- early-mid game: solar heater (like solar panels but with pipe. heats water depending on brightness)
- early-mid game: thermo generator (input - two pipes of water of different temperature, generates energy based on difference, outputs water of average temp). Doesn't waste water, can be used for closed cycle energy generation!
- mid game: water cooler (small storage tank that cools water by radiating heat, hot water cools faster, no energy required, faster at night)
- mid game: electric boiler (use excess energy to heat water)

accumulators: IRL nobody uses accumulators to store significant amount of energy because they are very inifficient and expensive. Accumulators should be used to cover spikes of energy usage (laser turrets). This could be achieved by adding self-discharge to them. This way, "just place more" is not an option.

This way:
- you can't rely on solar panels only, beacuse of accumulator nerf
- but you can store energy in water through night. This is more complicated than solar panel array.
- you can build closed and pollution-less systems (cool water with cooler and warm with heater, then generate energy based on difference. But warming works only at day and cooling is better at night)
- accumulators are still useful to cover skipes
- there are several ways to do things, that is good IMO

[MalcolmCooks]

If you find solar panels to be boring because you want there to be more complexity in late-game energy generation then the problem is not with the solar panels, the problem is that solar panels are not a good choice to have as the only alternative to steam. As I have said, considering how all other things in the game work, solar panels should not be made arbitrarily complex (ie difficult and frustrating) for no reason other than you want more of a challenge. You also need to consider the relative realism of the rest of the game. The proper solution is for there to be a third energy source, with clear advantages over both solar and steam power, that has drawbacks in the complexity of making a successful system.

[Koub]

You need some kind of rock, paper, scissors relation between several power production types to get out of the current situation where half the people are fine with solar + accus, and the other half find it outrageously too easy/broing/whatever.
Right now, you have steam : quick and dirty, and solar+accus : very expensive but kind of clean.

[Zhab]

You need some kind of rock, paper, scissors relation between several power production types to get out of the current situation where half the people are fine with solar + accus, and the other half find it outrageously too easy/broing/whatever.
Right now, you have steam : quick and dirty, and solar+accus : very expensive but kind of clean.

Steam) Quick, cheap, low maintenance.

Solar) High upfront cost but no maintenance. Not compact by any means. Usable anywhere and no pollution.

Whatever) High complexity (hard to automate, possibly need combinators contraption to workout the quirks) but very high power. Which makes it compacts for high power compared to other option. The power system by itself would be an high end device expansive to make but still cheaper compared to a 1000 steam engines system or a 10 000 panels system.

3rd power option offers an interesting alternative for the late game for experienced players that need a rewarding challenge to mess with. It would be interesting for multiple play styles including mega base builders and speed runners (speed running a bigger objective).

[Aikonn]

My idea about power:
Make energy transport more complex.

If you implement two problems:
- capacity of cables
- loss over long distance

Then energy would turn into another logistics problem - which is why we play Factorio
This would also add some chalenges to large field of solars.

[Hexicube]

My idea about power:
Make energy transport more complex.

If you implement two problems:
- capacity of cables
- loss over long distance

Then energy would turn into another logistics problem - which is why we play Factorio
This would also add some chalenges to large field of solars.

Then you'd just make more smaller solar fields and accumulator arrays, there's no added complexity.

[Koub]

My idea about power:
Make energy transport more complex.

If you implement two problems:
- capacity of cables
- loss over long distance

Then energy would turn into another logistics problem - which is why we play Factorio
This would also add some chalenges to large field of solars.

It would also be an optimization problem for the devs imagine how they would have to implement energy loss across literally kilometers of electric wires .

[Afforess]

It would also be an optimization problem for the devs imagine how they would have to implement energy loss across literally kilometers of electric wires .

I'm lazy and I can come up with a trivial solution: Power poles each consume a fixed, tiny amount of electricity. Then big poles are more energy efficient because you need fewer of them. The implementation is easy because you treat power poles like any other power-consuming entity.

[Koub]

That's a really smart solution indeed .

[ssilk]

Just adding a power loss for each pole will bring nothing for the game-play. You need just a bit more power. You are not forced to split your power network into parts.

A so called "blind power usage" makes only sense, if it works over distance!

Such a system of energy loss via blind power is already described in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=119&p=82946#p82946
See also viewtopic.php?f=80&t=15546 Cable resistance / Non-looseless Power transmission