[Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

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[Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Deadlock989 »

Hi, me again, sorry.

For both fluids with an energy value and specific recipes, you can specify an emissions_multiplier that is applied to the operations of the machine using the fluid or processing the recipe. For solid fuels, there is a similar fuel_emissions_multiplier.

The info panel for entities, however, does not display any change in the pollution value when a fluid with the multiplier is being consumed as fuel, or when the machine is processing a recipe, or when a solid fuel item is being used as fuel - it always displays the default emissions_per_minute value defined in the entity's energy source.

However, in the pollution statistics, it seems that the correct pollution values are actually being generated. I've tested both assemblers running directly off a fluid energy source, and a generator that burns fluids - in both cases the value on the chart in the statistics screen lines up with what I'd expect to see. But this is different to what the info panel says.

Related: there doesn't seem to be any in-game way for a player to know that a specific fluid or a specific recipe have been given an emissions multiplier, so no way of being able to weigh up the pros and cons of using one fluid over another, or that any specific recipe is going to generate a lot more pollution. For example when you mouse-over a pipe or a tank that has a fluid in it which has an energy value, the energy value is displayed, but not the emissions multiplier. Contrast this with solid fuel items which do display all relevant fuel modifiers in their tooltips. Players usually can't see fluids directly in the crafting tab - e.g. all the vanilla oils/gases are are cracking recipes with no main product - so they have no way of mousing-over a fluid directly.
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Re: [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Rseding91 »

Thanks for the report. I just spent some time looking into the different multipliers and my conclusion is: it's all screwy. Some multipliers are additive and some are multiplicative.

I need to sit down and graph out how every one of the modifiers effects pollution before I can even think about where to show what.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Deadlock989 »

Thanks for looking at it. I've stopped using all of them except fuel_emissions_multiplier for the time being.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by bobingabout »

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:44 pm
Thanks for looking at it. I've stopped using all of them except fuel_emissions_multiplier for the time being.
It's my fault, I added the entire system. I missed the machine reporting it due to the fact that adding a tooltip to items and fluids was an easy change, and by comparison adding it to the machine would be major surgery, plus the issue of not sure what the best way to report it would be.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Deadlock989 »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:37 pm
It's my fault, I added the entire system. I missed the machine reporting it due to the fact that adding a tooltip to items and fluids was an easy change, and by comparison adding it to the machine would be major surgery, plus the issue of not sure what the best way to report it would be.
There are really two separate issues with it. There's the inaccurate pollution reporting on the entity panel, which is maybe not such a big deal given that the pollution statistics tab reporting seems to work. I think more risky is the lack of information about emissions_multipliers on crafting tab tooltips for everything except the fuel items.

Fuel item emissions (item.fuel_emissions_multiplier): Reports the emissions multiplier in the item tooltip and the recipe tooltip when the fuel item is the main output, so no issues there. But a machine using such a fuel does not show a pollution multiplier.

Recipe emissions (recipe.emissions_multiplier): is not reported anywhere, ever, not on the recipe tooltip, or in the machine's working info panel when the recipe is being processed.

Fluid emissions (fluid.emissions_multiplier): is reported on fluids "in the world", i.e. when you highlight a pipe or tank containing the fluid, but nowhere else. Recipe tooltips don't report it even when the polluting fluid is the only product. Machines burning the fluid don't report it.

So if I have a liquid fuel with 1000% extra pollution, or I'm crafting plutonium breakfast cereal with cyanide milk in an assembler, I'm probably going to be wondering why the hell my base suddenly resembles Chernobyl on the pollution overlay and I'm being swarmed by every biter on the continent, because there was no way to know that would happen. The only thing a modder using these properties can do is put a handwritten note on the localised recipe descriptions.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by bobingabout »

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
There are really two separate issues with it. There's the inaccurate pollution reporting on the entity panel, which is maybe not such a big deal given that the pollution statistics tab reporting seems to work. I think more risky is the lack of information about emissions_multipliers on crafting tab tooltips for everything except the fuel items.
The statistics tab reads the actual emissions from the machine, so that's why it's correct.
this is actually one of the biggest head scratches of how to report the information that is giving Rseding a headache now that you've reported it as a bug, before you did that, it was my headache.
my thoughts is that it should just tell you how much it's generating (accurate) but just not tell you about the effects the recipe are having on it (otherwise you end up with huge bloat, you already have the information of effects of modules that it is telling you to worry about)
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Fuel item emissions (item.fuel_emissions_multiplier): Reports the emissions multiplier in the item tooltip and the recipe tooltip when the fuel item is the main output, so no issues there. But a machine using such a fuel does not show a pollution multiplier.
See above, the final value should probably just show the actual amount and not worry about where the multiplier comes from. the problem is if you open a GUI, in theory it should tell you the multiplier from the "currently burning" fuel.
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Recipe emissions (recipe.emissions_multiplier): is not reported anywhere, ever, not on the recipe tooltip, or in the machine's working info panel when the recipe is being processed.
the issue here is, when you point at a recipe, where should it tell you? it already tells you about the pollution multiplier of the result, as it gives you the full breakdown of the product by default. so if you have a recipe with an emissions multiplier, crafting an item or fluid with an emissions multiplier, there'd be 2 "Pollution: #%" lines on there.
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Fluid emissions (fluid.emissions_multiplier): is reported on fluids "in the world", i.e. when you highlight a pipe or tank containing the fluid, but nowhere else. Recipe tooltips don't report it even when the polluting fluid is the only product. Machines burning the fluid don't report it.
unlike items, it should actually tell you the currently burning fluids pollution in the entity GUI when you open it. but again, the emissions multiplier wouldn't show on the entity's tooltip, for the same reason as above (really, adding 50% multiplier from fuel, 50% multiplier from recipe etc to every combination is over the top, just showing the right value and modules bonuses should be enough) as for the products of the recipe, the values were added to "addToDescription" so in theory it should be showing it.
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
So if I have a liquid fuel with 1000% extra pollution, or I'm crafting plutonium breakfast cereal with cyanide milk in an assembler, I'm probably going to be wondering why the hell my base suddenly resembles Chernobyl on the pollution overlay and I'm being swarmed by every biter on the continent, because there was no way to know that would happen. The only thing a modder using these properties can do is put a handwritten note on the localised recipe descriptions.
I did ask Rseding if he wants me to work on it, since it's a feature I implemented, but I've not had an answer yet. I am willing to go through and try and solve all these issues, but at the same time I don't want to start work on it if he already has, because it would be pointless duplicated work, etc.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Deadlock989 »

bobingabout wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:41 pm
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Recipe emissions (recipe.emissions_multiplier): is not reported anywhere, ever, not on the recipe tooltip, or in the machine's working info panel when the recipe is being processed.
the issue here is, when you point at a recipe, where should it tell you? it already tells you about the pollution multiplier of the result, as it gives you the full breakdown of the product by default.
Not in my tests it didn't. The product doesn't necessarily have an emissions_multiplier because it may not be a fuel. If you're talking about recipes which produce a fuel, then yes it shows the fuel_emissions_multiplier from the item, as long as the fuel item is the main product - but that statistic shown on the tooltip is not the multiplier from crafting, it is tipping the player off to the penalty/advantage of burning the result. So if you matched the recipe emissions_multiplier of crafting that fuel to the fuel_emissions_multiplier of the fuel, it would be a different kind of confusing, but at least you are getting some information.

But the recipe property allows me to add pollution multipliers to any recipe and that multiplier is not shown anywhere, invisibly affecting pollution statistics. I am left wondering what the recipe emissions_multiplier is actually for. So I've stopped using all of these things except for the fuel_emissions_multiplier, which is reliable.

There has always been some ambiguity in the difference between items and recipes in the crafting tab but generally, in vanilla anyway, most players understand what is going on. These extra pollution multipliers on the recipe and liquids are squatting squarely in the middle of that confusion.
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Fluid emissions (fluid.emissions_multiplier): is reported on fluids "in the world", i.e. when you highlight a pipe or tank containing the fluid, but nowhere else. Recipe tooltips don't report it even when the polluting fluid is the only product. Machines burning the fluid don't report it.
unlike items, it should actually tell you the currently burning fluids pollution in the entity GUI when you open it. but again, the emissions multiplier wouldn't show on the entity's tooltip, for the same reason as above (really, adding 50% multiplier from fuel, 50% multiplier from recipe etc to every combination is over the top, just showing the right value and modules bonuses should be enough) as for the products of the recipe, the values were added to "addToDescription" so in theory it should be showing it.
It isn't.
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by bobingabout »

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:51 pm
Not in my tests it didn't. The product doesn't necessarily have an emissions_multiplier because it may not be a fuel. If you're talking about recipes which produce a fuel, then yes it shows the fuel_emissions_multiplier from the item, as long as the fuel item is the main product - but that statistic shown on the tooltip is not the multiplier from crafting, it is tipping the player off to the penalty/advantage of burning the result. So if you matched the recipe emissions_multiplier of crafting that fuel to the fuel_emissions_multiplier of the fuel, it would be a different kind of confusing, but at least you are getting some information.
Yes, exactly, if the item has no multiplier, it just doesn't tell you it has one. this is to avoid cluttered tooltips. As for if and when it shows it, it's just part of the game engine's rules as to if and when it shows an item breakdown.
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:51 pm
But the recipe property allows me to add pollution multipliers to any recipe and that multiplier is not shown anywhere, invisibly affecting pollution statistics. I am left wondering what the recipe emissions_multiplier is actually for. So I've stopped using all of these things except for the fuel_emissions_multiplier, which is reliable.
Recipe's don't tell you their emissions multipliers... yet.
Like I said, I wrote the feature. and when I did, I had a specific use case in mind. Voiding. In my case, venting gasses. it was the biggest area that was bugging me in that you could vent oxygen and it gave pollution, and you could vent chlorine, which could be considered a toxin and it gave the same pollution. So I added support for this so that venting oxygen gives 0 (or even negative) pollution, where Chlorine give 5000% pollution.

But since the feature is there, anyone can use it for anything, so I should add the tooltip. Like items, it should be easy to add this, but I don't want to touch it until Rseding says I can.

Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:51 pm
Deadlock989 wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm
Fluid emissions (fluid.emissions_multiplier): is reported on fluids "in the world", i.e. when you highlight a pipe or tank containing the fluid, but nowhere else. Recipe tooltips don't report it even when the polluting fluid is the only product. Machines burning the fluid don't report it.
unlike items, it should actually tell you the currently burning fluids pollution in the entity GUI when you open it. but again, the emissions multiplier wouldn't show on the entity's tooltip, for the same reason as above (really, adding 50% multiplier from fuel, 50% multiplier from recipe etc to every combination is over the top, just showing the right value and modules bonuses should be enough) as for the products of the recipe, the values were added to "addToDescription" so in theory it should be showing it.
It isn't.
I'll just have to test and double check things, but I went out of my way to add it to every place I could find on fluids. The GUI when you open an entity, the fluidBox tooltip (which shows up when you point to any entity and it tells you what the fluids are), and the fluid's description itself(which should appear when you point to any fluidbox icon in any GUI that contain the fluid, or in the crafting menu).
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Re: [Rseding91] [0.17.37] Minor: emissions_multiplier for recipes and fluids not shown in info panel

Post by Rseding91 »

This is now taken care of for the next version of 0.17 thanks to Bob.
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