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Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestions)

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:02 pm
by Mattyrogue
So... I've clocked about fifteen hours on Factorio so far, and look forward to clocking in some more time, but there are several, quite significant problems I've begun to notice with the balancing in this game so far, this thread will try to chronicle them and also take in feedback from others;
  • Player Death 'Mechanic' - When you die, you just... Respawn. Like you never died, furthermore, there really is no explanation on how you arrive, especially in Multiplayer. Perhaps some sort of new respawn animation featuring a drop-pod coming down from orbit? And perhaps some way to set your respawn location that comes in early/midgame (and requires electricity), like a landing beacon. (This beacon could also become a target for aliens.)
    *
  • Early Game - Burner-type equipment (Miners & Inserters) outlive their usefulness within often as little as ten minutes and are never used again for the duration of the game. Now, there are some ways this could be amended I feel (either lowering the pollution or doubling the output, alternatively the Electric Miner could use some kind of revision instead) or some kind of mid-tier research requirement for electric miners. (Given we don't get electric furnaces until midgame)
    *
  • Midgame Pacing - Railroads. Originally I thought they came a bit late, but after a while of talking with my Multiplayer friend, it turns out we were just avoiding them, still, there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on using them until drones and expansions come along, maybe some way to encourage or reward people looking to long-term invest in railroads and expansions in the mid-game, like an armed/armoured train carriage that can help take out mid-game nests. (Or alternatively lowered production and research costs)
    *
  • Alien Artifacts - Now, I know this seems like a bit of a stickler for me, but their hardly artifacts in their own right, their a bunch of purple paperweights which require you to take out, one, maybe two Biter/spitter nests and then you have adequate science packs from the (sometimes several) dozen or so artifacts to reach endgame tiers. Could we rename these to Alien Artifact Fragments instead? As the term artifact is barely befitting of their purpose and abundance.
    -Another thing I'd like to propose here is that the abundance of these 'artifacts' is toned down heavily, making a nest give a variable amount based on its evolution level (Never more than 10), and that a new type of enemy (that can 'hover', both over water and conveyors) be introduced, that has a chance of dropping these revised artifacts.
    *
  • Pollution Revision and the implementation of 'Toxicity' - Trees should act like a sponge to pollution, slowly soaking up the CO2 you are producing, as you are producing more, the less effective it becomes. Now, when you produce your first Refinery, it will begin to introduce 'toxicity' into the chunk, and rapidly pollute a wide area around it (which increases with time and production) with this toxicity. The radius infected with this Toxicity causes trees within it to wither and die over the course of 30 minutes - an hour, furthermore, the Refinery itself drives the aliens mad and becomes their primary target. Any aliens that enter a chunk under the effect of toxicity will gain a 50% increase in damage. (As signified by them going berserk from the extreme pollution)
    *
  • Enhanced Night Time Mechanics - Both Turrets, Players and Vehicles receive either an accuracy or some kind of range penalty at night, firing into the dark, making fights during the night a bit more risky than just the lowered awareness. Aliens will prefer to attack during the night, especially Biters.
    -To counter this though, a new type of 'Optic', a Watchtower with a spotlight can be built, that will offer a sweeping cone of vision much like that of a player's torch that will 'lock on' to approaching groups of enemies (but not singular units). Turrets under the effect of this watchtower have any range/accuracy penalties removed when firing at enemies under its cone.
    *
  • Improved Enemy Behaviour and Tactics - Biters, will now be more effective in groups and actually come in a spread instead of a never-ending conga line of death. Spitters, will try and hang back behind Biters while they try and distract turrets, giving them a chance to do damage. Worms can carry a small group of units and burrow closer (within one or two chunks) of a player's base to deliver a surprise attack before retreating. The AI will attempt to attack from a different path if more than 5-10 attempts fail.
    -Concrete, a new Tile Enhancement, made from Bricks and Sulfur, can be used to create swathes of impassible ground that Worms cannot pass through, furthermore it actually lets us make our own paths and roads and add small roleplay aesthetics to our creations. Concrete can be built under most other structures and can be removed with a pickaxe.



Hopefully, I'll find the compulsion to come back to this thread and update (and add comments from other players) as I go.

Last Updated: 11/02/2015

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:19 pm
by ssilk
Thank you for the efforts. My critics is only to help you.
Mattyrogue wrote:Player Death 'Mechanic' - When you die, you just... Respawn. Like you never died, furthermore, there really is no explanation on how you arrive, especially in Multiplayer. Perhaps some sort of new respawn animation featuring a drop-pod coming down from orbit? And perhaps some way to set your respawn location that comes in early/midgame (and requires electricity), like a landing beacon. (This beacon could also become a target for aliens.)
Why is that a balancing problem?
Early Game - Burner-type equipment (Miners & Inserters) outlive their usefulness within often as little as ten minutes and are never used again for the duration of the game. Now, there are some ways this could be amended I feel (either lowering the pollution or doubling the output, alternatively the Electric Miner could use some kind of revision instead) or some kind of mid-tier research requirement for electric miners. (Given we don't get electric furnaces until midgame)
Whe already had that discussions:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =16&t=6169
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=8282
The devs won't adress this for now, cause it is not a gameplay problem. This is also not a balancing issue.
Midgame Pacing - Railroads. Originally I thought they came a bit late, but after a while of talking with my Multiplayer friend, it turns out we were just avoiding them, still, there doesn't seem to be much emphasis on using them until drones and expansions come along, maybe some way to encourage or reward people looking to long-term invest in railroads and expansions in the mid-game, like an armed/armoured train carriage that can help take out mid-game nests. (Or alternatively lowered production and research costs)
Armored trains, Artillery train:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... +train#p13
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... lery+train
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... lery+train
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... lery+train
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... lery+train
Alien Artifacts - Now, I know this seems like a bit of a stickler for me, but their hardly artifacts in their own right, their a bunch of purple paperweights which require you to take out, one, maybe two Biter/spitter nests and then you have adequate science packs from the (sometimes several) dozen or so artifacts to reach endgame tiers. Could we rename these to Alien Artifact Fragments instead? As the term artifact is barely befitting of their purpose and abundance.
If you want that to be heard, you should make it an own suggestion. See also https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3394
Another thing I'd like to propose here is that the abundance of these 'artifacts' is toned down heavily, making a nest give a variable amount based on its evolution level (Never more than 10), and that a new type of enemy (that can 'hover', both over water and conveyors) be introduced, that has a chance of dropping these revised artifacts.
Well, this is the first balancing suggestion. Make that an own thread, please.
Pollution Revision and the implementation of 'Toxicity' - Trees should act like a sponge to pollution, slowly soaking up the CO2 you are producing, as you are producing more, the less effective it becomes. Now, when you produce your first Refinery, it will begin to introduce 'toxicity' into the chunk, and rapidly pollute a wide area around it (which increases with time and production) with this toxicity. The radius infected with this Toxicity causes trees within it to wither and die over the course of 30 minutes - an hour, furthermore, the Refinery itself drives the aliens mad and becomes their primary target. Any aliens that enter a chunk under the effect of toxicity will gain a 50% increase in damage. (As signified by them going berserk from the extreme pollution)
Well, AFAIK it is planned, that the trees are just dying from too much pollution. Game mechanical-wise it is identical to your suggestion.
Enhanced Night Time Mechanics - Both Turrets, Players and Vehicles receive either an accuracy or some kind of range penalty at night, firing into the dark, making fights during the night a bit more risky than just the lowered awareness. Aliens will prefer to attack during the night, especially Biters.
-To counter this though, a new type of 'Optic', a Watchtower with a spotlight can be built, that will offer a sweeping cone of vision much like that of a player's torch that will 'lock on' to approaching groups of enemies (but not singular units). Turrets under the effect of this watchtower have any range/accuracy penalties removed when firing at enemies under its cone.
There are many suggestions about changing behaviour of player, equipment and/or aliens in the night/without light, the needs for light in the night, special aliens which appear in the night, alarms systems,... I won't search them all now.
Improved Enemy Behaviour and Tactics - Biters, will now be more effective in groups and actually come in a spread instead of a never-ending conga line of death. Spitters, will try and hang back behind Biters while they try and distract turrets, giving them a chance to do damage. Worms can carry a small group of units and burrow closer (within one or two chunks) of a player's base to deliver a surprise attack before retreating. The AI will attempt to attack from a different path if more than 5-10 attempts fail.
THe current idea about this in the forum is smell / pheromones.
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ilit=smell
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/sea ... words=3440
-Concrete, a new Tile Enhancement, made from Bricks and Sulfur, can be used to create swathes of impassible ground that Worms cannot pass through, furthermore it actually lets us make our own paths and roads and add small roleplay aesthetics to our creations. Concrete can be built under most other structures and can be removed with a pickaxe.[/list]
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/sea ... s=concrete
This is also a suggestion and not about balancing.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:23 am
by zwills
Mattyrogue, FWIW I like your suggestions!

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:54 am
by bobingabout
Mattyrogue wrote:Player Death 'Mechanic' - When you die, you just... Respawn. Like you never died, furthermore, there really is no explanation on how you arrive, especially in Multiplayer. Perhaps some sort of new respawn animation featuring a drop-pod coming down from orbit? And perhaps some way to set your respawn location that comes in early/midgame (and requires electricity), like a landing beacon. (This beacon could also become a target for aliens.)
Really? from my experience with the game (Which I admit is very little of 0.11 series), when you die, you're dead, game over, you have to reload from your last save
Mattyrogue wrote:Early Game - Burner-type equipment (Miners & Inserters) outlive their usefulness within often as little as ten minutes and are never used again for the duration of the game. Now, there are some ways this could be amended I feel (either lowering the pollution or doubling the output, alternatively the Electric Miner could use some kind of revision instead) or some kind of mid-tier research requirement for electric miners. (Given we don't get electric furnaces until midgame)
I'll admit that the Burner Miners become useless, but the Burner inserters still have a usefulness supplying fuel to anything burner based, which would be your power plant. Keep in mind that if you have a black out (usually due to no fuel in the burners), then power to electric inserters will shut down too, causing you to have to go down there and insert some manually to kickstart it. if have use burner inserters instead, they'll kickstart themselves, since they always keep a unit of fuel in themselves, if they're not inserting fuel, they're not using fuel, so the fuel inside them will remain.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:24 am
by Gammro
Really? from my experience with the game (Which I admit is very little of 0.11 series), when you die, you're dead, game over, you have to reload from your last save
I think he's talking about Multiplayer?(which I haven't played yet) Which is IMO a bit unfair, MP at this point is pretty much a proof of concept which can be expanded on when it's stable, so probably when 0.12 is released.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:01 pm
by ThaPear
Gammro wrote:
Really? from my experience with the game (Which I admit is very little of 0.11 series), when you die, you're dead, game over, you have to reload from your last save
I think he's talking about Multiplayer?(which I haven't played yet) Which is IMO a bit unfair, MP at this point is pretty much a proof of concept which can be expanded on when it's stable, so probably when 0.12 is released.
Well, considering you permanently lose everything you were carrying I do not believe it's all that unfair.
The only issue is that there is not really a deterrent on dropping everything of value in a chest and performing a kamikaze attack.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:09 pm
by hoho
ThaPear wrote:The only issue is that there is not really a deterrent on dropping everything of value in a chest and performing a kamikaze attack.
A kamikaze attack with what, exactly? :)

To be able to do any sort of damage one needs to survive. That requires relatively expensive armor. To be able to deal damage one needs decent (and expensive) weapons. Sure, at some point it might not be too bad to loose power armor and combat shotgun but I still consider it pretty harsh to loose everything one has equipped on death.

In Minecraft the items drop and can usually be recovered after death. Though (most?) people still don't like to die in that game either even if the chance of loosing items isn't too big usually. Death in Factorio has *far* more serious consequences.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:36 pm
by Mattyrogue
Yeah, I will admit now quickly that most of this is in reference to my Multiplayer Experiences with 0.11.14
ssilk wrote:Thank you for the efforts. My critics is only to help you.
Hey ssilk! Thanks for the critique. Admittedly I did mix a fair bit of my own suggestions into the balancing thread too, believing them to be relevant to the points I was trying to make. Thanks for adding your own to it though

Admittedly your word search on the word concrete barely brings up any concrete evidence of it's own, or at least of any dedicated suggestion thread to it. (There's plenty of references, metaphors and the occasional idea)
hoho wrote:
ThaPear wrote:The only issue is that there is not really a deterrent on dropping everything of value in a chest and performing a kamikaze attack.
A kamikaze attack with what, exactly? :)

To be able to do any sort of damage one needs to survive. That requires relatively expensive armor. To be able to deal damage one needs decent (and expensive) weapons. Sure, at some point it might not be too bad to loose power armor and combat shotgun but I still consider it pretty harsh to loose everything one has equipped on death.

In Minecraft the items drop and can usually be recovered after death. Though (most?) people still don't like to die in that game either even if the chance of loosing items isn't too big usually. Death in Factorio has *far* more serious consequences.
Well, you reach a point in the automation and the likes where you can have things like 'acceptable losses', one of the things we did was dumping everything you had in a chest, jumping into a fully loaded tank and going on a nest-killing rampage.

Though on that note, it would be nice if when you died in Multiplayer, you left a lootable corpse with perhaps half of your original inventory, and with a certain time window to reclaim it before the bugs come by and eat it up.

Re: Mattyrogue's Thread of Balance Ramblings (And Suggestion

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:12 am
by bobingabout
Mattyrogue wrote:Though on that note, it would be nice if when you died in Multiplayer, you left a lootable corpse with perhaps half of your original inventory, and with a certain time window to reclaim it before the bugs come by and eat it up.
I like the idea, though as it stands at the moment, the bugs would likely eat it stright away, because they've just killed something, they'll scan for a new target, and the cloest enemy to them would be... your corpse.