Factorio Forums

bobucles wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am

If you look at my suggestion I'm not talking about a manual upgrade planner. I'm talking about an automatic one where you define what you want to upgrade (same as upgrade planner) but the robots automatically upgrade parts of your factory they pick if you have enough items in stock. This way eventually everything will be upgraded automatically.

There's no easy way for a factory to know exactly what you want upgraded or when. Sometimes things are meant to be NOT upgraded such as weaved belts or burner inserter backups or the like. Sometimes an upgrade needs a physical overhaul such as steel furnaces to electric furnaces. Other times an upgrade process can stall a factory for hours, like stuffing tier 3 modules into everything. The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.

factoriouzr wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:14 pm

bobucles wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am

If you look at my suggestion I'm not talking about a manual upgrade planner. I'm talking about an automatic one where you define what you want to upgrade (same as upgrade planner) but the robots automatically upgrade parts of your factory they pick if you have enough items in stock. This way eventually everything will be upgraded automatically.

There's no easy way for a factory to know exactly what you want upgraded or when. Sometimes things are meant to be NOT upgraded such as weaved belts or burner inserter backups or the like. Sometimes an upgrade needs a physical overhaul such as steel furnaces to electric furnaces. Other times an upgrade process can stall a factory for hours, like stuffing tier 3 modules into everything. The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.

As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.

factoriouzr wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.

bobucles wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.

Zavian wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:19 am

factoriouzr wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm As I said, you define upgrade yellow belt to red for example and then ALL yellow belt will be replaced by red belt over time. There is no guessing involved. ALL things you configure will be upgraded. If you want more control perhaps you can set these settings per logistics network, but having a global one for all networks is good enough for me. This is the feature I want. If you have some entities you don't want to upgrade, you don't put them in the upgrade list. Most entities in the game are straight up improvements in every way from previous tiers, so there is absolutely no reason not to upgrade them if you want. Upgrading them won't break anything.

Doing that blindly will break any belt weaving setups. In addition there is often no need to upgrade the output from things like blue circuits/yellow/purple/space science.

Even if I am upgrading everything, I still want the upgrade done in stages. First the belts from the mines/ore unload stations to the copper/iron/steel smelters, then the belts from the copper and iron smelters to their high volume consumers (eg things like green circuits). Probably next will the the belts from green circuits to their high volume consumers, then maybe plastic and red circuits etc. It is pointless to upgrade the output belts from the smelters, if you don't have enough ore or enough smelters to be able to produce more than a yellow belt of output.

As Bobunles said

bobucles wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am The job of deciding what and when to upgrade is best left to player brains. That's more fun anyway.

(For people who don't care about upgrade order, then you could probably just drag the upgrade planner selection tool over the entire factory, and let the bots do things in whatever order they choose).

I want the rest to be upgraded automatically as I described.

factoriouzr wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am I think there is a point to upgrade everything. Belts go to assembly machines and out of assembly machines, when assembly machines get upgraded, you can supply more resources. This is just a simple example.

factoriouzr wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am You also can't drag select everything in your factory as that will disable belts etc and stop production.

Zavian wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:44 pm I can fully understand some people wanting to upgrade everything. Back when I played multiplayer I saw that too many times. (Provided nothing breaks and the mines/smelters/resource sources can actually feed the new faster belts/assemblers then I have no objection. Unfortunately too often players seem to think that if the server is short on something that they will upgrade just that section, or just the bus, without noticing that real problem is not enough mining or smelting to feed the existing production facilities).

factoriouzr wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am I think there is a point to upgrade everything. Belts go to assembly machines and out of assembly machines, when assembly machines get upgraded, you can supply more resources. This is just a simple example.

I'm going to take issue with your example. In many cases, (including some I specifically pointed out in my previous post), even after upgrading assembly machines, (and even after adding 4 speed modules), you can still leave many of your belts as yellow belts.

Take a yellow science setup. 14 (lvl 2) assemblers making 1.5 yellow flasks per second. To feed that you need 0.75 batteries and 0.75 speed modules per second, 30 (lvl 2) assemblers making 2.25 blue circuits per second, and 66 (lvl 2) assemblers making red circuits, and one yellow belt of copper (11.25 per second) just to feed the copper wire assemblers for yellow science itself. Overall yellow science is consuming roughly 5 yellow belts worth of green circuits.

Now upgrade all those assemblers to lvl 3 assemblers, and further boost their output by adding 4 lvl 3 speed modules to every assembler. Now you can make 7.5 yellow science per second (production has increased by a factor of five, but a yellow belt is still fine). You need 3.75 batteries and speed modules per second, (one lane of each on a yellow belt is still plenty). 11.25 Blue circuits (again a yellow belt is fine). But you need 1.5 blue belts of copper for the copper wire assemblers for yellow science, and overall yellow science is using over 8 blue belts of green circuits. So unless your initial design planned for this upgrade, you probably need to do some redesigning to keep these upgraded assemblers fed with copper and green circuits.

Whilst I understand that some people want to just upgrade everything, from my point of view the only reason to do so is "because the player wants to". There is no gameplay reason to do so, and those resources can often be better spent elsewhere.

Now making that "just upgrade everything" approach easy is fine, but it shouldn't be done in a way that breaks existing setups (eg by default it should not break belt weaving setups, nor burner inserters feeding steam generators). It also shouldn't prevent players who want more control from being able to say, "just upgrade those mines/smelters/stations or whatever". To me that means upgrade everything functionality needs to be optional, and off by default. (Personally I think it is better game design to encourage the player to make decisions about what they should upgrade. That also suggests that the default behaviour should not be "just upgrade everything").

factoriouzr wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am You also can't drag select everything in your factory as that will disable belts etc and stop production.

I can't think of any reason why the devs should make a vanilla upgrade planner function that way. From my perspective, bots should be able to upgrade the belt in place, without it needing to mark it for deconstruction first.

Rythe wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 am And now, that simple iron pickaxe that formed the basis of your journey can be done away with. Your factory cares for it not, and best that you no longer remember when you were once the master and not the slave.

Klonan wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:11 pm In the ancient times, you first had to create a wooden pick, to create a stone pick, to mine basic resources, to make iron, so you can make an iron pick. Yes... this was clearly Minecraft affecting our ideas. We identified soon, that this prequel of manual mining has nothing to do with the core of the game, and is an unnecessary distraction. The fact that it was the first thing the player had to do in the game was gravely affecting what new players thought the game is about. So we kept only the iron/steel pick to streamline things.

Rythe wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 amThis was the raw, undiluted first taste of everything Factorio was expecting to become, slowly consumed by inching along a path where you built things to augment yourself. First directly by way of equipment (pickaxe before weapons and armor), then gently

expanding that out by way of buildings that did things you couldn't, then buildings that augment those manual tasks that formed your first sense of the world, then expanding out even further so that buildings helped buildings augment and automate those tasks you first mastered by hand (mining, crafting). It was the gentle expansion of your conscious mind outward into ever new possibilities.

I dislike research that has no associated item production because the thematic chain is research allows you to build new things which gives the player new/improved capabilities. It's a far stronger experience than generic number upgrades that work like magic in the background.

bobucles wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:59 am

I want the rest to be upgraded automatically as I described.

What order should pieces be upgraded in? What are the choke points? What is priority for upgrading? If a factory starts upgrading junk at random, it's throwing away resources until every single choke in the production chain gets addressed. A pile of blue belts with one yellow belt is only as good as that yellow belt. A train station that has random inserter upgrades will easily become unbalanced and can screw up careful train network planning from the player.

No, an upgrade system based on RNG is not a good system and it absolutely does not belong as a default. If you want that the best option is to take an upgrade planner and cover your entire base in one swoop. That will do the exact same thing.

immatthu wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:00 pm Still, many more cosmetics and a way to beautify my factory. Hunger, farming, and temperature management would go a long way as well as new vehicles.

But whatever.. I see the roadmap and I think the game is pretty much done and was already one of the best games I've ever played.

bobingabout wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...

AlienZoo23 wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:10 am This is a goodbye from me to FFF's, after several years of reading and enjoying. This FFF and the one early this year about bots vs belts have so soured me that the best thing is to just stop reading and stick with playing a version I can enjoy.

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am Pretty much done. 0.17 is regressing in some important ways, I'm wondering if it would be more profitable for

bobingabout wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...

to stop support of his mods for future versions of Factorio and instead extend them for 0.16.

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.

Oktokolo wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.

Don't stop modding. You will not only miss the joy of using all the API enhancements of 0.17+. But all the players currently using your mods will be pretty sad too. They all would have to decide, whether they want all that new shiny stuff of 0.17+ or miss out on all of that to be able to keep using your mods wich would not be updated for newer game versions. That surely would be a heartbraking decision you would force on the Factorio player base.

Oktokolo wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:05 am I've begun work on one last Factorio modpack for 0.16, and I seriously doubt I'll ever build one for 0.17 because the axes are just too damned important.

Don't stop modding. You will not only miss the joy of using all the API enhancements of 0.17+. But all the players currently using your mods will be pretty sad too. They all would have to decide, whether they want all that new shiny stuff of 0.17+ or miss out on all of that to be able to keep using your mods wich would not be updated for newer game versions. That surely would be a heartbraking decision you would force on the Factorio player base.

Rythe wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:37 am Problem 1: Making a pickaxe first thing is problematic
Problem 2: Rebuilding pickaxes is an annoying, mostly pointless time sink
Problem 3: Axeless mining speed is punishing and no longer fits game design vision
Bad Solution: Remove pickaxes completely

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:01 am As for Bob's, it does seem likely that 0.16 and 0.17 will branch and diverge (and that will certainly happen if he takes ND out of the license), with 0.17 taking advantage of some of those new features, but the announcements in FFF#266 broke an awful lot in Bob's Mods which he now must spend a significant amount of time fixing instead of extending the pack's features. I believe there is a significant possibility he could decide to extend 0.16 functionality before starting the move to 0.17, and if people who use Bob's stay in 0.16 as a result, that could be it.

Oktokolo wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:43 am

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:01 am As for Bob's, it does seem likely that 0.16 and 0.17 will branch and diverge (and that will certainly happen if he takes ND out of the license), with 0.17 taking advantage of some of those new features, but the announcements in FFF#266 broke an awful lot in Bob's Mods which he now must spend a significant amount of time fixing instead of extending the pack's features. I believe there is a significant possibility he could decide to extend 0.16 functionality before starting the move to 0.17, and if people who use Bob's stay in 0.16 as a result, that could be it.

He is probably already updating his mods. Also, i would not expect him to make his license more permissive. But if you really want to fork, you could ask him directly. Maybe he allows you to redistribute alterations for Factorio version 0.16 or earlier.

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:02 am Look what mod has over five thousand downloads in the last six months!

And look what mod has a whopping 240 downloads in the last month.

Koub wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:58 am

featherwinglove wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:02 am Look what mod has over five thousand downloads in the last six months!

And look what mod has a whopping 240 downloads in the last month.

Keep the mining speed upgrade. Discard the axe object crafting. Problem solved.
The mod will be even lighter : no need for new recipes or textures. Instead of having to craft the actual axe, it's granted with the tech unlock.