Re: Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:59 pm
Never said I was, but please, do keep mansplaining to me what I already know and said.
www.factorio.com
https://forums.factorio.com/
Never said I was, but please, do keep mansplaining to me what I already know and said.
For me, I don't buy a game for it's mods. I use the mods to enhance what I've paid for. If the base game doesn't interest me/loses its appeal, then mods are more of a way to "fix" it and this feels wrong to me. If the mods are more interesting than the game, why am I giving my money to the game devs?meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pmThe mod interface is available for exactly this reason. You are not a rebel by using mods, you are the use case of mods.
The bold part of post says, you are at the stage of developer who sits in own air castle, observing the others. Proposed oil change removes a peak, for a while. But the solution is like ask an elephant to deliver log into a porcelain shop. He did the work, he delivers right?V453000 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:29 pmI see. I believe the multiple output problem, and "learn the new production chain" as in recipes and fluids/items, are two different things to learn/solve and thus can (and are a good idea) be separated.Theikkru wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:26 pmAh, herein lies the rub then. When I think oil, I think first and foremost of the multiple outputs puzzle; as I see it, the multiple outputs problem is THE basic mechanic I associate with oil and all its processes, so while I can understand shuffling recipes around to (reduce distracting logistical complexity and) make it easier to tackle, it makes little sense to me to separate it from the introduction of oil itself.
Maybe your perspective is heavy influenced by the fact that you had to go through the BOP puzzle the first time and that's how you remember it / the iconic part of it, especially now that the items/recipes are just "another recipes" retrospectively.
Well, I'd guess that it reflects the real life petroleum distillation process, where "heavy oil" flows out of the bottom, "light oils" from the middle, and finally the gas(es) comes out of the top :irbork wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:45 am[...]peet1993 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:32 amI post this for forum user AntiElite as he currently has no access to the forum. Opinions (and all spelling mistakes) are his, not mine!
[...]
I am not sure about the position of the petroleum being at the edge instead of in the middle. It looks kinda weird if you don't know the upgrade coming. Maybe it should be swapped.
[...]
The petroleum output in the middle was on my mind for quite some time, since it would allow nicer and easier fully beaconed advanced oil processing builds with integrated cracking.
In deed it happens quite often now that I set some or all of my advanced oil processing back to basic to get some heavy oil when I am short.
[...]
You can in all cases see how filled they are and how fast the fluid flows (relative to what speed though?), and in which direction - though it could be shown better.vampiricdust wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:23 pmWith liquids, pipes will show on alt view as having liquids in them even when it's a fraction from the way flow mechanics work. It's hard to look at an oil setup and know which product is not getting drained without tanks.
I think you mean "pushing bots behind Advanced Oil Processing" ?vampiricdust wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:23 pmBots have been pushed back and back and back in the tech tree even though some of us find them to be the funnest part of the game. They help tremendously with base building and logistics, which makes dealing with oil so much less frustrating. By pushing bots behind oil, you're now forcing new players to deal with the mess of oil and get not get anything really interesting or fun for a long time (new players won't blow past this as fast as experienced players). Bots were a really nice reward for getting oil started and keep players motivated to power through the puzzle. I love bots, but dealing with oil was a nightmare on my first attempts to figure it out. If I didn't have bots, I don't think I would have really enjoyed the game as much dealing with it.
I think that there's quite a bit of gameplay between mid(?)-blue science and rocket launch ?vampiricdust wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:23 pmIt's just more incentive not to use bots at all because they come so late that it isn't worth using them unless you're going to play past the win condition.
BTW, laser beams (with different color support!) was a mod by one of the devs (Klonan), made as far back as 0.12 !RocketManChronicles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:47 pm(4) Laser Glow - As an avid user of the mod, I am all for this being vanilla. It is a really nice aesthetic and adds to the power of the laser. Good job bringing this to the game! Out of curiosity as a modded game player, will this support different colored lasers as some mods had introduced different colors for different tiers (aka Bob's)?
So descriptions like "this joke nerf pitched at the lowest common denominator" (obviously showing your contempt) is just a message that this nerf is of no concern to you? Why post it at all then? Why push for "leave the base freeplay game alone, for people who weren't born yesterday.", if it doesn't concern you?Deadlock989 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:59 pmNever said I was, but please, do keep mansplaining to me what I already know and said.
But unless you are a guy without long-term memory, vanilla will lose its appeal eventually because you know everything and have tried everything. If you are at that point and have sunk hundreds of hours into vanilla and then say "Hey, this game lost its appeal and mods are better, why did I pay for it" is ignoring that you long got your money's worth out of it.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:07 pmFor me, I don't buy a game for it's mods. I use the mods to enhance what I've paid for. If the base game doesn't interest me/loses its appeal, then mods are more of a way to "fix" it and this feels wrong to me. If the mods are more interesting than the game, why am I giving my money to the game devs?meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pmThe mod interface is available for exactly this reason. You are not a rebel by using mods, you are the use case of mods.
I am not the original poster, but here is my issue with "forcing" people to use mods that substantially change the gameplay:meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:02 pmBut unless you are a guy without long-term memory, vanilla will lose its appeal eventually because you know everything and have tried everything. If you are at that point and have sunk hundreds of hours into vanilla and then say "Hey, this game lost its appeal and mods are better, why did I pay for it" is ignoring that you long got your money's worth out of it.
Why did I paid for the game you created just for yourself?
I paid for the game because I loved the complexity. As time goes, they've been slowly removing more and more of the complexity. If I had to make the evaluation of the game in terms of "is it worth it" now as if I was buying it for the first time or recommending it to someone else, I would have a harder time of saying yes.meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:02 pmBut unless you are a guy without long-term memory, vanilla will lose its appeal eventually because you know everything and have tried everything. If you are at that point and have sunk 100 hours into vanilla and then say "Hey, this game lost its appeal and mods are better, why did I pay for it" is ignoring that you long got your money's worth out of it.FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:07 pmFor me, I don't buy a game for it's mods. I use the mods to enhance what I've paid for. If the base game doesn't interest me/loses its appeal, then mods are more of a way to "fix" it and this feels wrong to me. If the mods are more interesting than the game, why am I giving my money to the game devs?meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:44 pmThe mod interface is available for exactly this reason. You are not a rebel by using mods, you are the use case of mods.
Also mods are not built on an empty foundation. Even huge complete conversion mods like BoB's mod are just a new thin layer on top of a huge foundation of code that Wube created and made accessible for modders. Giving a modder all the credit is like declaring the artist who painted the walls of a castle to be the castle builder.
I follow your logic here Bilka. Splitting up the new concepts into different stages is a good way to make it easier for new players.Bilka wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:16 amI like the oil change.
Oil processing in Factorio is a wall for new players because you have to learn many new concepts at once.
..
The change described in the FFF reduces the amount of new concepts you learn at once by removing (delaying) one, outputs blocking recipes. So now you only have 3 instead of 4.
Come on, this is unfair. V took free time on his sunday to answer. His arguments are valid. Also don't forget that players who agree & players who don't care may not write it on the forums as much as the disagreeing players.Yandersen wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:17 pmWhy did I paid for the game you created just for yourself?
So many customers are against the proposed change, and you act like that. Hundreds arguments was posted, alternative ideas suggested. You want to do your thing - do your thing.
I don't need to explain what I think when I have people like you to explain what I think for me, clearly.meganothing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:02 pmSo descriptions like "this joke nerf pitched at the lowest common denominator" (obviously showing your contempt) is just a message that this nerf is of no concern to you? Why post it at all then? Why push for "leave the base freeplay game alone, for people who weren't born yesterday.", if it doesn't concern you?
You just create heavy oil and light oil out of thin air? Neat. You could argue that coal liquefaction is used instead, but what's the problem with that? It's more difficult than advanced oil processing, so it definitely doesn't reduce complexity. And it won't have the exact ratio of heavy and light oil that you need, so there's cracking again.BattleFluffy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:25 pmHowever this should not come at any cost. This change seems like it would greatly reduce the complexity of oil, especially for a megabase, as there is likely no need to ever use Advanced Oil Processing recipe or cracking.
Can we make it a rule that any complaint about how this changes the game needs to come with a gameplay example using one of the mods that implements the change today?Bilka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:39 pmYou just create heavy oil and light oil out of thin air? Neat. You could argue that coal liquefaction is used instead, but what's the problem with that? It's more difficult than advanced oil processing, so it definitely doesn't reduce complexity. And it won't have the exact ratio of heavy and light oil that you need, so there's cracking again.BattleFluffy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:25 pmHowever this should not come at any cost. This change seems like it would greatly reduce the complexity of oil, especially for a megabase, as there is likely no need to ever use Advanced Oil Processing recipe or cracking.
You're right, a few cracking plants along with a liquefaction refinery seems like the optimal way to get lubricant and/or solid fuel.Bilka wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:39 pmYou just create heavy oil and light oil out of thin air? Neat. You could argue that coal liquefaction is used instead, but what's the problem with that? It's more difficult than advanced oil processing, so it definitely doesn't reduce complexity. And it won't have the exact ratio of heavy and light oil that you need, so there's cracking again.BattleFluffy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:25 pmHowever this should not come at any cost. This change seems like it would greatly reduce the complexity of oil, especially for a megabase, as there is likely no need to ever use Advanced Oil Processing recipe or cracking.
This is quite a sarcastic way of making your point. I'm just trying to discuss things.. :\ I know it's probably because of mega-stress though. I love you guys, and will support you whatever happens.You just create heavy oil and light oil out of thin air? Neat