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Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:05 pm
by mexmer
BlueTemplar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:53 pm
I like how
AAI Industry makes inserters, belts &c harder to craft, and makes the burner stage last more 5 minutes,
but also makes the burner stage more interesting
by adding stuff like burner assemblers, burner labs, and water-less burner generators !
AAI provides t0 (steam era) automatization, and it's complexity for t0 is increased just slightly ... still it makes sense in context (if we take, that starting with steam makes sense at all ... no discussiion intended on this).
but increasing complexity of recipe, just for sake of complexity doesn't add any value.
just for record, in vanilla you need 2 assemblers to make belt. i think up to 4 (+final one so 5), doesn't look terrible, anything beyond is annoyance, unless you have lower tier belt, with less components.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:53 pm
by mrvn
BlueTemplar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:53 pm
I like how
AAI Industry makes inserters, belts &c harder to craft, and makes the burner stage last more 5 minutes,
but also makes the burner stage more interesting
by adding stuff like burner assemblers, burner labs, and water-less burner generators !
Burner assemblers, burner labs, and water-less burner generators are a transient thing and you only need a few of them. Once you researched better assemblers you can replace them all in place. They don't make producing stuff more complex. They just add another level of improvements to the building.
That is different from making belts much more complex to craft.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:46 pm
by BlueTemplar
That's how it looks like for AAI Industries (with Bob's Logistics and belt overhaul, not sure if they change anything besides the speed in the case of basic belts) :
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:48 pm
by BlueTemplar
But note that (Electric) Inserters are already quite a bit more involved !
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:07 pm
by SajmonG
morfledouille wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:56 am
Is that the new Angels Industries&Science ? Looks awesome !
That many steps in building simple items like belts will probably be a game changer for starter bases
Does Angels science pack replace vanilla science packs?
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:28 am
by BlueTemplar
If I'm not mistaken,
(and that might change with Angel's Industries),
for the "core" science packs (i.e., not Bio-Tokens, Alien, Module sciences),
Angel uses Bob's science recipes,
and Bob has only changed their respective recipes (and color, as an option),
Bob didn't add new science packs in-between.
(A lot of the change in progression, besides recipe changes, comes from the new Bob's electronic circuit that is kind of between vanilla's Green and Red circuits.)
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:24 am
by foodfactorio
ukezi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:45 am
I will take a look at reducing the item count.
If you or bob don't reintroduce the limits in item count, they will be gone by 0.17.
what does this mean sorry?
will version 0.17 of the game have a max amount of items?
will this max be on a per mod basis, or will there be a maximum amount of items possible in the whole game engine (including all mod items cumulatively?)
when i play, its usually with several mods, for example, i have a cool AngelBobYuoki game
plus a Py mods game,
(most usually have several extra quality of life mods too)
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:49 am
by ukezi
At the moment there is a arbitrary limit on the number of indigence in a recipe a given assembler tier can work with 2 for MK1, 4, including one fluid for MK2. That limit will be gone in .17 vanilla.
The "problem" at the moment that you can't automate the casting machines with MK2 assemblers, so I suggested an intermediate Item to reduce the indigence count from 5 to 3.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
by Arch666Angel
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
by mexmer
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
by Arch666Angel
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
From the
FFF-226 it reads
Assembling machine ingredient limit removal
What I have in mind will work a bit different anyways, but I have to achieve it in a different way now. It's probably cleaner that way anyway but more work up front.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:07 pm
by Raphaello
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
From the
FFF-226 it reads
Assembling machine ingredient limit removal
What I have in mind will work a bit different anyways, but I have to achieve it in a different way now. It's probably cleaner that way anyway but more work up front.
It's not as bad as they wrote in FFF. Look here:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=63125&start=260#p384635
Mods can still use efficiency (this has been stated, in FFF); Mods can still limit assembling machine ingredient count, just vanilla ones use defaul limit of 255 (FFF did not mention this)
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:09 pm
by mexmer
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
From the
FFF-226 it reads
Assembling machine ingredient limit removal
What I have in mind will work a bit different anyways, but I have to achieve it in a different way now. It's probably cleaner that way anyway but more work up front.
limit will be removed from vanilla definition not from protype or mod interface. (every vanilla assembler will have limit of 255 items per recipe, but mod can set it to old value)
so yes, we can have mod, that reverts 0.17 assemblers to 0.16 behavior with minimum effort (just modify single value on each).
thanks @Raphaello for relevant link
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:59 am
by mrvn
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:09 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
From the
FFF-226 it reads
Assembling machine ingredient limit removal
What I have in mind will work a bit different anyways, but I have to achieve it in a different way now. It's probably cleaner that way anyway but more work up front.
limit will be removed from vanilla definition not from protype or mod interface. (every vanilla assembler will have limit of 255 items per recipe, but mod can set it to old value)
so yes, we can have mod, that reverts 0.17 assemblers to 0.16 behavior with minimum effort (just modify single value on each).
thanks @Raphaello for relevant link
I like they idea of having different ingredient limit based on size. So a 2x2 mini assembler would only take 2 items, a 3x3 take 4 items and complex recipes then need a complex assembler that's 4x4 (or even more levels).
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:11 pm
by mexmer
mrvn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:59 am
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:09 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
mexmer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:02 pm
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
From my understanding you will be able to override (or rather set) limit even on basegame assemblers.
From the
FFF-226 it reads
Assembling machine ingredient limit removal
What I have in mind will work a bit different anyways, but I have to achieve it in a different way now. It's probably cleaner that way anyway but more work up front.
limit will be removed from vanilla definition not from protype or mod interface. (every vanilla assembler will have limit of 255 items per recipe, but mod can set it to old value)
so yes, we can have mod, that reverts 0.17 assemblers to 0.16 behavior with minimum effort (just modify single value on each).
thanks @Raphaello for relevant link
I like they idea of having different ingredient limit based on size. So a 2x2 mini assembler would only take 2 items, a 3x3 take 4 items and complex recipes then need a complex assembler that's 4x4 (or even more levels).
while such idea is appealing, and even will make sense, such linear scaling will not make much sense, also there is issue with graphic, just enlarged classic assembler to 6x6 will look fugly. (and i don't think about pixelating, if you use lowres sprite, i'm talking about fact, that current assembler model doesn't have enough details for upscaling)
not to mention, current assemblers accept item limit + 1 fluid, yes fluid is not included in ingredient limit and assemblers have intake for fluid. which on even limit count (therefore even assembler size), will look weird, because it will not be centered.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:53 am
by SajmonG
A suggestion from me, to use all Exploration-Token-Bio-Tech, is to use them in a lab and resarch productivity for Bio farms. Each level you research increase the productivity by 2% in one (or more) from following buildings:
Farm
Bio Processor
Seed extractor
Nutrient extractor
Press
Just as mining productivity does.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm
by Arch666Angel
mexmer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:11 pm
while such idea is appealing, and even will make sense, such linear scaling will not make much sense, also there is issue with graphic, just enlarged classic assembler to 6x6 will look fugly. (and i don't think about pixelating, if you use lowres sprite, i'm talking about fact, that current assembler model doesn't have enough details for upscaling)
not to mention, current assemblers accept item limit + 1 fluid, yes fluid is not included in ingredient limit and assemblers have intake for fluid. which on even limit count (therefore even assembler size), will look weird, because it will not be centered.
So assemblers will scale from 2x2 to 4x4, the bigger the assembler the slower it is crafting speed wise but the more ingredients it can take. Question is if ingredient count should still rise from tier to tier or if it is just the crafting speed that will get up over tiers.
I'll try to get out at least a test version before the Christmas holidays, but I'm not sure I will manage.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:01 pm
by mexmer
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm
mexmer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:11 pm
while such idea is appealing, and even will make sense, such linear scaling will not make much sense, also there is issue with graphic, just enlarged classic assembler to 6x6 will look fugly. (and i don't think about pixelating, if you use lowres sprite, i'm talking about fact, that current assembler model doesn't have enough details for upscaling)
not to mention, current assemblers accept item limit + 1 fluid, yes fluid is not included in ingredient limit and assemblers have intake for fluid. which on even limit count (therefore even assembler size), will look weird, because it will not be centered.
So assemblers will scale from 2x2 to 4x4, the bigger the assembler the slower it is crafting speed wise but the more ingredients it can take. Question is if ingredient count should still rise from tier to tier or if it is just the crafting speed that will get up over tiers.
I'll try to get out at least a test version before the Christmas holidays, but I'm not sure I will manage.
If you think about it, you can do both in tick/tock manner
T0 - 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 - respective item count, speed 0.5
T1 - increase speed by 50% , eg. 0.75
T2 - increase item limit on each by one, speed as blue
T3 - increase speed to 1.0
T4 - increase item limit by one
T5 - increase speed to 1.5
And asincetive for people upgrading from big to smal, when changing item limit, keep same power consumption, while speed increase will result in slightly higher power consumption
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:50 pm
by live22morrow
Arch666Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
I will probably re-invent the ingredient limit but more for the purpose of assembling machine of different size and speed, so you can produce stuff but you have to choose specific machines to do so. But it will be a buttload of work because I have to manually adjust crafting categories for all recipes in assembling machines or come up with some more elaborate code.
This sounds more like pyMods, where most of the new recipes require specialized machines for them. It's a cool approach, but has the obvious problem that it takes a ton of work to design and model so many new buildings. And from a gameplay perspective, it requires to create and hold on to a ton of different items with very specific uses, clogging up the inventory.
Re: Development and Discussion
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:52 am
by ShinoHarvest
Light wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:53 pm
ukezi wrote:as I use play seablocks, I am limited in the level of modules. also the higher tier buildings are so much faster that even if they slow down with non raw productivity, a beaconed build will need lots of stacks.
Sounds like something the seablock mod author could implement for you, given the problem relates to that and not Angel's directly.
ShinoHarvest wrote:sugestion
large many of petro chem use steam, and you add éléctric boiler for make it but with mk upgrade / speed module éléctric boiler totaly insufisant steam ouput and not upgradable. probaly need mk lv on electric boiler for increase steam output/s and/or and special nuclear heat exanger for petrochem take low power drain for make 100~200° steam with large output/s posibility multiple mk on this exchanger for adapt steam need for module 8 speed
With what I stated earlier with my massive gas blueprints that I create, I've long since tested that steam from electric boilers is by far the worst thing to use in anything remotely moderate to large scale. The Mk2 boiler is very cheap and creates nearly double the amount of steam of an electric boiler. The Mk4 is naturally the most superior in creating steam at a fast rate and is my personal favorite in the late game to meet those heavy demands, fueled by coke pellets which seemingly last forever.
Given you're burning fuel to achieve those higher fluid units, it kind of balances out. The Mk2 electric boiler couldn't hurt, but the Mk4 boiler will still greatly outpace it which defeats the point. Bob's planning to release a Mk5 boiler which will be incredible at steam production with an even higher fuel efficiency. The big fear with electric boilers is having it be so efficient that it can create more power than it can use, but electric boilers have always been rather terrible since you likely burn more coal to power it than you would likely use to make the steam directly.
We already have higher tier steam exchangers though, but I've personally not tested using them for their steam since nuclear fuel is more valuable than simple coal/wood. I'm sure someone has tested it and can comment more about it.
actualy best option is steam exchangers mk1 because other have bag ratio power/steam unit because just incrise heat steam value
but for petrochem no need high heat value on steam and need special echanger for make 100-200° steam on large amount
other ides is possible add option for have buildable bio special tree for make decoration (swamp tree, temperate tree ...) but just for decoration not harvestable exemple craft with bio token
