RTS direction

[mycale]

I dont really like this idea. I bought the game because i enjoy building factories if we get robots to do everything and make it into a RTS it pretty much becomes a different game and i dont see it competing with starcraft unless theres something that can really make it stand out.

The core concepts of the game would still be the same, just the way of building stuff would change.
You would still have to build transport belts/trains/inserters assembling machines etc, you would just don't have to run there personally to build that.

Having an avatar you control directly makes the game a touch more "personal" for me. Running here and there to do your stuff is what makes part of the charm of Factorio. I'd rather see the games "building factories" part beeing fleshed out completely before adding the strategy layer.

[ficolas]

And no fighting creepers D:
nonono D:! I dun like it I want my character running :S

[Blackmoor]

I dont really like this idea. I bought the game because i enjoy building factories if we get robots to do everything and make it into a RTS it pretty much becomes a different game and i dont see it competing with starcraft unless theres something that can really make it stand out.

The core concepts of the game would still be the same, just the way of building stuff would change.
You would still have to build transport belts/trains/inserters assembling machines etc, you would just don't have to run there personally to build that.

Having an avatar you control directly makes the game a touch more "personal" for me. Running here and there to do your stuff is what makes part of the charm of Factorio. I'd rather see the games "building factories" part beeing fleshed out completely before adding the strategy layer.

I tend to agree. To me the core of the game is a survival story where the main character creates factories to help him craft faster and automate resource collection and defense. But when you remove the survival aspect altogether and take the "human" out of the picture, you loose something important. What I'd suggest instead would be to control one robot Avatar at a time. The human character would sit in a virtual reality chair and a factory would produce a "copy" of the player character. If that "copy" dies, you'll wake up in a virtual reality chair (sort of like having an extra life). But I don't like the idea of the game eventually becoming a full RTS.

Developers, don't loose the charm of a single player to control, even if you add in friendly AI units.

[MatLaPatate]

Why are you all saying "I don't want this part of the game, just keep that one". I think one of the main cool point with Factorio is that it can be BOTH RTS-like and survival. And for people who don't like some RTS or survival features, it could just be switched on/off with modes. So you could have RTS mode, Survival Mode, Tower Defense mode or whatever you want ...

[ficolas]

Why are you all saying "I don't want this part of the game, just keep that one". I think one of the main cool point with Factorio is that it can be BOTH RTS-like and survival. And for people who don't like some RTS or survival features, it could just be switched on/off with modes. So you could have RTS mode, Survival Mode, Tower Defense mode or whatever you want ...

Game changing gamemode games have a big problem
Slooow developement, since the devs need to develope all the game modes at the same time, I think it should be keept at it is

[THENIRL]

Really like the "Robot Avatar" concept. With more war robots implemented, this could be an especially strong unit, kind of like a hero, but without the dreaded perma-death consequences of having your character duking it out with enemy hordes.

Still think there can (and probably should) be an RTS element in the gameplay, with war machines (I keep imagining mechwarrior-like robots for some reason). However, like quite a few people pointed out, managing those fighting units shouldn't be the main focus. If they are more automated, having limited comands like "patrol-defend", "patrol-attack", "stationary", "agressive", etc. (there could be research available that enabled progressively more useful commands), the player can focus more on building its factory, getting a healthy supply of, let's say, ammunition, spare parts for the repair bays, labs and science pack production lines to research robot upgrades and new builds, all this while having its fighting units protecting the factory automatically. Eventually, some sort of "search & destroy" command could become available for research. Now we have a full-blown battlefield, metal slaughter everywhere, but our main focus will still be the production lines' efficiency, so that we guarantee our robot army doesn't become outdated or that its ammo supply doesn't run out!

This being said, none of it invalidates more economics-oriented campaigns or multiplayer matches, like the ones I stand up for in the "Any economy geeks out there" thread

[Freetambo]

Hi,

I think I'm late to the party here. But here are my views.

Personally I play freeplay without aliens interfering in my stuff, but I could envision a sort of Herzog Zwei style combat system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog_Zwei since it would provide some middle ground.

You build units (either by crafting them or through some special robotics plant or whatever), and assign orders to them which they then start to do until you reassing orders, or they die.You remain in full control of the main character (no throne room). Examples of orders you could give are: attack the enemy (specify direction), patrol the base, follow the player. You could create groups (color coded) of units that share orders, these would be like armies.

Unit management would be kind of prone to micro management in this style (not sure if this is an advantage or disadvantage):
*You'd have to physically visit your armies to see how they're doing, unless you have some sort of radio on you that would provide status updates (current orders, current activity (moving, fighting), number of units, health, ammo).
*You'd have to visit the troops to give new orders, unless some sensor building is introduced. This would allow you to find and interact with your units through a minimap
*They would need to be refuelled and rearmed by you until you've got automated units that refuel and rearm units in their army.
*Since you yourself are the most powerful unit in the game, you want to be present at major engagements. You might want to have a helicopter that moves you across the battlefield quickly. Of course, if you die it's game over.

Micromanaging battles would be impossible, since the orders are vague. So in the end, it's the guy who created the best army (by having the best factory) who wins.

[ssilk]

I like especially the Helicopter-idea. That enables you also to plan big railroads,

Factorio could be a real-time strategy-game but I mean some essential stuff is missing to make the game faster, bring more order into the game, not doing routine-jobs not over and over.

From older ideas which are going into this direction:

- Robot station https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ?f=6&t=964
Prinziple of "you cannot control the details, you can only set some parameters".

- Factories https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=1016
I think a game which needs > 2 hours to come to a stage, where you can start to think about attacking will be played together only by very, very hard fans. Factories or similar things to speed the game up are for me no question, only how and when they may be implemented.

[zer0t3ch]

I dont really like this idea. I bought the game because i enjoy building factories if we get robots to do everything and make it into a RTS it pretty much becomes a different game and i dont see it competing with starcraft unless theres something that can really make it stand out.

The core concepts of the game would still be the same, just the way of building stuff would change.
You would still have to build transport belts/trains/inserters assembling machines etc, you would just don't have to run there personally to build that.

And possibly implement some kind of fog-of-war-type system, where you can't build x-distance away from the nearest lamp or something like that. (Think Warhammer 40k)

[Imp0815]

I really think that the orientation to a little more RTS game-play is a very good decision.
The game at beginning feels small, you got your stone ovens and steam engines but in the mid game you got like 20 ovens and many many miles of conveyor belts and then you enhance the factory and run around just thinking in tracks and inserters and how you can place everything the most efficient way.
I really dig into this kind of mid game, so real that i mostly forget about my player character and i try to place something on the screen border and it don't works and after clicking and short-therm-raging i realize "oh wait i must move my camera thing placeholder to get there". So i mean some people like this kind of attachment to the Character, well i like it too and the argument to identify with this guy has really a point but i think the coolest way to develop the game-play is to go larger and bigger.

So the Throne/Control Room idea is a good step to bringing the late game to Factorio and the more "larger and bigger thing".
It brings the game-play to a whole new level that you have now the big over view of your factory and you can plan and design much easier and it gives me a very sublimely feeling that i started this facility with just some stone ovens and now a army of building bots just waits to do my bidding and build up a whole new production line for armor piercing bullets.

The army part seems a bit more difficult. You have to think "do we really want the standard RTS select and click movement?" I think Factorio should stay with the passive control term (logistic bots). So i can think of some methods how this could work efficient and cool.
Building the units should really only be possible in a defined facility. I think about something like a modern car factory( http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 82XBQhJ2Gc ). It would be so cool to build robots or tanks on a conveyor belt and one inserter puts the part on and one special welding inserter welds it to the chassi.
After they assembled the unit it walks of the belt and its ready to fight.
So now to the unit handling sure it cant be like "oke unit ready next stop alien base" it would end in a flash game situation where you just put down the facility and it spawns x units in x time so they can zerg-rusch the next base. It would work like that but it would be like i said "like a flash game" not the way the direction i would bring my game in.
So we need a more complex mechanic. The idea with flags or patrolling posts is nice and sure it would be useful anyways but i think you started with the colored networks why stop now?
Every unit gets a colored wire build in (i implicate that you plan to add more than two colors) and over this colored code you control your army's.
I'm not quit sure what the best way to control them is yet, maybe like place markers in the color of the army you want to move/attack or just make it work with the standard RS mechanic "select and order".
Maybe a system with radars that you give orders out of special Radar posts that control one army. the army only receive orders within the radar radius but it can leave the radius and finish the order even without a signal. So you build the red control post and order your red army to attack the next alien base. How the "give orders GUI" works must be consider then to. I saw that you work with coordinates maybe use them. Yeah it wouldn't be so intuitive and easy as "select and order" but it had a unique touche. And also it would provide some handwork(with your character), you could build a leaser and when you point on the ground and shoot it gives you the coordinates that you than can type into the red control station. After that the red army would leave with move/attack/roam/defend/explore orders.

So i hope i could make my ideas here a little accessible and didn't wrote a total mess, i await your constructive responses.

(maybe i add a little more thoughts later on)

[Nirahiel]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

[slpwnd]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

This is sort of the current direction we are heading for. The player is a central focus of the game with some possible RTS-like elements in the future (like non-trivial fighting robots you mention).

[Imp0815]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

This is sort of the current direction we are heading for. The player is a central focus of the game with some possible RTS-like elements in the future (like non-trivial fighting robots you mention).

Why not implement it anyways?
Nobody would be forced to get in the command center and build in a free form RTS-Style Camera with ghost-models for pre-placed factory lines and Sending fighting robots across your Outposts and bases.
Also i don't know why people bring up Starcraft as a comparison. Between these two lies like a hundred worlds filled with big creepers.
Starcraft is a fast pasted well balanced and asymmetric esport RTS. I don't see any correlations between a Factorio RTS mode and Starcraft at ALL.
Factorio it at its core a factory resource management building game in my eyes and has very little to do with survival.
the Survival factor seems to me as a good selling point now a days and there are a lots of them out there right now so i think Factorio should focus more on mechanics that makes it unique. Because that's the reason my friends and i play it.
When i want to play a character focused survival game i play Don't Starve.
That is a good comparison - Don't Starve and Factorio. Both games feature a 2D isomeric view with a character centered camera and base building.

The main goal in Factorio is in my opinion to automate everything, so you the player hasn't do all this stuff by hand. So i really want to automate everything. I can automate very much things by now but not everything, and that is the fighting. Well i can defend my base with turrets and walls but with the last update its even harder. I want a way to farm alien artifacts automated, i don't want to fight creepers, i want something or one to do it me - i want to automate it. The easiest way to satisfy this would be to implement a way to produce these artifacts but then the alien base kinda loses it right to exist and that wouldn't be so nice.
I think im not alone with my concerns i play Factorio with 4 friends and they all are not very happy about the artifact farming at the end, they are more like into building a big factory and automate everything. Also i often read about other people in the forum that more like the enjoyment of building a big factory than fighting creepers or defend there bases.
Maybe you just make a survey what people like most about Factorio and then deiced it which way you should mostly put your work efforts.
for Exampel:
Building a Factory = More buildings, more ways to use the factory (trade, markets, automation)
Fighting and Combat = More weapons more armor and more combat mechanics (well you implemented this just well with 0.7.0 ^^)
Exploration = More unique things to look at
etc.

[ssilk]

Good examples. I mean, that this direction is introduced, when you make peace with the natives. You give them something, what they really need and therefore they give eggs. So my idea about this, but who knows, what comes out at the end?

[slpwnd]

@Imp0815
We are aware that a distinguishing feature of Factorio is the building and automation. That is also what the community likes the most. On the other hand we have decided to include fight and survival elements in the game to provide some sort of pressure on the player and motivate him in his building. It could very well ended as a game simulating building a factory in real world (like China). Who knows if it would be better. What I like about the current approach is that is it sort of free. You are not forced to do that or that. You can go out and fight the enemies if you like or explore the world a bit (not much to explore for now though:|).

This release has been heavily focused on the combat since that was the most lacking part of the game. After this gets balanced we will be back on some factory building elements.

As ssilk mentioned there will be a way to play peacefully in the future. Probably via "trade with the natives" way. That way you will be able to get their artefacts and land for some of your goods. When that happens the automation will be almost complete:)

[Imp0815]

@Imp0815
We are aware that a distinguishing feature of Factorio is the building and automation. That is also what the community likes the most. On the other hand we have decided to include fight and survival elements in the game to provide some sort of pressure on the player and motivate him in his building. It could very well ended as a game simulating building a factory in real world (like China). Who knows if it would be better. What I like about the current approach is that is it sort of free. You are not forced to do that or that. You can go out and fight the enemies if you like or explore the world a bit (not much to explore for now though:|).

This release has been heavily focused on the combat since that was the most lacking part of the game. After this gets balanced we will be back on some factory building elements.

As ssilk mentioned there will be a way to play peacefully in the future. Probably via "trade with the natives" way. That way you will be able to get their artefacts and land for some of your goods. When that happens the automation will be almost complete:)

Good good so my automation-phile-needs will get satisfied then...

Well the fighting is really a nice approach to motivate the player but setting goals like the new point scenario you introduced with 0.6.? is also very compelling without fighting.. anyways I'm not saying i don't like the fighting but i don't really see a survival aspect. You just build up a factory for the sake of building a factory at the moment, and you know, for me and many other players this is enough to make me think that Factorio is a very great game to enjoy and fiddle with my production line until i can't think out of assemblers and output per min . China isn't a good example ;P everything in there factories is mainly made by handwork...

So you plan to build in some kind of natives? because trading with the creepers seems very unlikely in any shape or form
How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources? Or sending a giant harvester bot to kill all those savages and get the pressures resources out of there cold dead hands (would work for me just say'n)

Jokes aside i really see great potential in this game and you should make the best out of it. I would like to see building space ports like in Startopia where trade ships dock from time to time and offer resources, but I lose the thread here...

The freedom of this game is unquestionable but it hurts me a bit personally when game play parts that i don't value that much gets more attention than the ones i really dig into.(Also I'm really really really disappointed how the new combat robots work you should make them like the logistic robots and put patrol post into the game where these robots patrol from point to point. Just reuse the provider and requester chest code and rewrite it a little).

So now i have explained my self a bit and i hope to read about a cool RTS extension in Factorio in the far future.

[ssilk]

How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources?

I mean, everybody, who had/has a pet, will understand, how you can communicate with the natives.

[ficolas]

How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources?

I mean, everybody, who had/has a pet, will understand, how you can communicate with the natives.

A pet is not a giant worm that eats buildings D:
Its a fluffy doggy

[ssilk]

Don't laugh.
I think factorio isn't such a bloody Armageddon Hollywood thriller or so, it's a much more intelligent game.
Pets can communicate. Our dog brought his collar, to tell, he wants to go out.
Even this worms will - or better - should have a way to communicate. I mean, they can alarm others, so they communicate. Learn to communicate, learn their "language".

And what can they communicate now? You are making to much bad air. We don't like you. Stop it. Stop it now, or we will kill it. We will kill it. We will kill you.
And what can tell you now? I build this, excuse it, but it makes a bit dirt. I really need to built that. No, if you don't like it, your problem, but I really, really need to. If you fight me, I'll kill you. I protect what I built, cause I need it, and if I need to kill you I will.
Not that much, but much more, than thought, eh?

[ficolas]

So they could... Bark? XD
Jk I think its a good idea
Or maybe another raze that seems more inteligent and controlls biters and worms.
That could also explain why biters and worms are together, and why alien artifacts can be used to research high tech/ make high tech.