Mod-Header Discussion (PLEASE READ)

[DaveMcW]

I meant when you search the entire board, and end up in the mod section by accident.

[SHiRKiT]

Remember that some stuff here mat be GUIDES, other may be LIBRARIES, and other may be MODPACKS and so on, so I think it's worth to put MOD on title.

[ssilk]

Mod name or picture - already in the thread title

I thought it looks just a bit better to repeat this in big here.

140 character limit - just stop reading after 140 characters if it is too long

I changed it in the example mod: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 122#p93122
No absolute limit here anymore, but 140 chars is just long enough for one line.

Latest release number - already in info.json and the zip filename
Required factorio version - already in the thread title
Download url - already in the attachment, if hosted on the forum

As a player I really would like to have that information in one place.

And for the download url: What to do, if one offers to download all previous versions? An automatic scanner cannot know, which is the right version to download.

It is not possible to read the release date directly, but there are ways to calculate it. Look at post edit date, or have a bot scan frequently for changes.

This is the same: It needs to read the whole thread and look, for the latest update. How should an update look like? That makes automatic scan really ugly.

The only thing really required is a direct zip link, for files hosted somewhere else. A bot should be able to find this anywhere in the post.

As said: This "anywhere" can be many.

Is there a point in having MOD in the title in a board full of mods?

Yes, for search results.

Agreed, this is needed. Perhaps we have at some point also MAP, SCENARIO or BLUEPRINT something like that. I introduced with my example also a BUGS https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 22&t=13836
But I'm really not sure, if that is a good idea. I just want to try this out, it was a suggestion from Betka.

[Zeblote]

You should also require every mod to have enough images in the main post to show what it does.

Let's pick a random mod to demonstrate: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 92&t=13709
Even after reading all the irrelevant info in the topic, it's still not clear how a 'timelapse' actually looks. So what is the point? Do I have to install it to find out?? And how do I even use the mod???

If there's a mod topic and it's not clear what it does in less than a minute, most players will just close it.

[ssilk]

What you want to discuss is what's the best way to make a good mod-description.

What I want to discuss here is: What is essentially needed for describing a mod.

That is a completely different interest. I want to discuss this, cause it is my job as moderator/admin to look around and try to find ways, how to use the information in this forum better.
I don't have the interest to "sell a mod to players". That is completly the interest of the modder. Or eventually the devs (but also from a completley different point of view).

I mean it should be clear for every modder, that a mod needs good descriptions. Pics. Otherwise the whole work he puts into it is "for the cat" (how we say it in Germany). Maybe it is in the interest of the players to have much pics in the mod-threads.

I don't say, don't discuss it. I say: Do it! But I say also: Don't mix both interests.

Make for example another thread about it. I will support any descision made there.

[Narc]

Mod name or picture - already in the thread title

I thought it looks just a bit better to repeat this in big here.

I'll be honest, I totally missed it the first few times I looked at the example. The best I can say about it is, while it triggered my auto-ignore filter, it doesn't really get in the way much. On the other hand, it also doesn't seem to add much.

Latest release number - already in info.json and the zip filename
Required factorio version - already in the thread title
Download url - already in the attachment, if hosted on the forum

As a player I really would like to have that information in one place.

Definitely with you on that -- when I'm scanning my saved list of linked threads, it's nice to have all the immediately relevant information in one place, up front. That said, I am not a fan of the hyphenated words, as seen in the example. Even a bot should be able to match the string without the hyphens.

It is not possible to read the release date directly, but there are ways to calculate it. Look at post edit date, or have a bot scan frequently for changes.

This is the same: It needs to read the whole thread and look, for the latest update. How should an update look like? That makes automatic scan really ugly.

I don't think this question was ever asked: why would you want a bot to do this, and who's going to write it? If you want to be feeding a site that has all the mods in one place, why not switch away from the forum and make the site the primary upload location? You could still have forum threads automatically created for discussions.

in other words, I think you might be going about this in the opposite direction from how it normally goes.

[ssilk]

A bot will have no problems with the hyphens, that is really not much to look about this.

And to the last question: I have reasons.

And it gets now off-topic, but I think it is a point, I need to throw in now:
In June I have been in Prague with the dev-team and we talked half a day about a mod-plattform. Modding community. Call it whatever.

We looked at existing solutions. I think we looked at more than a dozen sites, which enables downloading.

And I found one thing, which is quite interesting: With an active modding comunity you need also the possibility to discuss mods.
There are two possibilities then:
A) Create a modding plattform, that also has some kind of mini-forum per mod.
B) Use and existing forum.

A seems to be the right way, but it is also the way with the most work. B on the other hand will look a bit crappy, but it will work without much changes to an existing solution and it is super flexible in how a modder creates his "area".

So the logical solution is, that I now prepare the forum for B. Making it like so, will enable to have very small steps of development. Which lowers the hurdle for changes.

[SpeedDaemon]

What about having the mod authors (or whoever wants to, really) explicitly submit their info.json to something like KSP's CKAN?

Seems like trying to format a machine-readable entry on a forum, and then creating something else to go dig the information out again to put in a database is a lot of unnecessary effort...

[Narc]

A bot will have no problems with the hyphens, that is really not much to look about this.

A bot will also have no problems without the hyphens, and the hyphens look bad. That is what I said.

[...]
There are two possibilities then:
A) Create a modding plattform, that also has some kind of mini-forum per mod.
B) Use and existing forum.

A seems to be the right way, but it is also the way with the most work. B on the other hand will look a bit crappy, but it will work without much changes to an existing solution and it is super flexible in how a modder creates his "area".

Yeah... except forums are lousy to begin with. And the "super flexible" thing is exactly what you're aiming to remove so that the entries are machine-readable. I have an idea: how about we put all the machine-readable parts in a spoiler that nobody has to open? It's still part of the post, technically, but it doesn't look ugly as sin.

A "modding platform with a mini-forum per mod" means "a site to upload files to, showing some meta-data about the files (some of which can be automatically derived from the files themselves), and linking to a forum thread". None of that is difficult, and it's a one-time setup instead of requiring posters and moderators to be careful about how the magical first post in a mod thread gets formatted.

What about having the mod authors (or whoever wants to, really) explicitly submit their info.json to something like KSP's CKAN?

Seems like trying to format a machine-readable entry on a forum, and then creating something else to go dig the information out again to put in a database is a lot of unnecessary effort...

Yes, that's basically what I meant about doing things backwards.

To the extent that forums are good for anything, they're good for discussions within large groups of people. Trying to bash them into a form that makes them good for something else is likely to take longer than doing the right thing in the first place, as well as being more fragile and unfriendly.

[ssilk]

A bot will have no problems with the hyphens, that is really not much to look about this.

A bot will also have no problems without the hyphens, and the hyphens look bad. That is what I said.

Ok, I removed it. How is that looking now: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=13835

And the "super flexible" thing is exactly what you're aiming to remove so that the entries are machine-readable.

No, what I want to do is something, which helps to create the first database. After the first breakthroughs we will have a modding platform, where modders can add their mods, download, binary, sourcecode, links and all other essential information needed to handle a mod and also a link to the (essentially needed) discussions. Which is then this forum. Or at some point also somewhere else.
The target is to enable, that this forum-threads are eventually not longer needed, but also not needed to be removed, cause why removing a working system?

I have an idea: how about we put all the machine-readable parts in a spoiler that nobody has to open? It's still part of the post, technically, but it doesn't look ugly as sin.

Well, I don't have anything against that. But part of discussion is also, how to make both: machine- and human readable. I don't see the advantage in hiding it, cause for serious users this means to search for the hidden part and click on it, but maybe this is just my own opinion, cause I'm much more used to read such kind of texts, than the average reader.

Yeah... except forums are lousy to begin with.
... A "modding platform with a mini-forum per mod" means "a site to upload files to, showing some meta-data about the files (some of which can be automatically derived from the files themselves), and linking to a forum thread". None of that is difficult, and it's a one-time setup instead of requiring posters and moderators to be careful about how the magical first post in a mod thread gets formatted.
... To the extent that forums are good for anything, they're good for discussions within large groups of people. Trying to bash them into a form that makes them good for something else is likely to take longer than doing the right thing in the first place, as well as being more fragile and unfriendly.

I would count your critics as o. k. if you made a usable alternative suggestion.

The question is: What can be improved NOW to make things better than NOW?
Which means: This is of course a temporary state. We don't know, how long the current state will last. It can take a year. I don't calculate for that this year. Maybe after 0.13 release?
You are really invited to make it better.

[Narc]

A bot will also have no problems without the hyphens, and the hyphens look bad. That is what I said.

Ok, I removed it. How is that looking now: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 89&t=13995

I'm not sure that link goes where you intended?

And the "super flexible" thing is exactly what you're aiming to remove so that the entries are machine-readable.

No, what I want to do is something, which helps to create the first database.

Okay, I like that idea, but I've too often seen makeshift "temporary" solutions be left permanent just because they worked "well enough". A database of Factorio mods right now (for v0.12+) would be pretty quick to collate, simply because there aren't that many of them. Now is the perfect time to do it -- and we can add the older mods slowly, over time, especially if their authors pitch in.

After the first breakthroughs we will have a modding platform, where modders can add their mods, download, binary, sourcecode, links and all other essential information needed to handle a mod and also a link to the (essentially needed) discussions. Which is then this forum. Or at some point also somewhere else.

Okay. So let's do that, then. I'm not, however, convinced of the utility of making a bot to read the mod threads once to create the initial database.

The target is to enable, that this forum-threads are eventually not longer needed, but also not needed to be removed, cause why removing a working system?

I never said anything about removing forum threads. In fact, I rather assumed from the start we'd keep the discussions basically where they are already.

But part of discussion is also, how to make both: machine- and human readable.

My experience has been that machine-readable parts tend to be no more than marginally human-readable, unless the humans in question happen to be programmers. Not really a ringing endorsement.

Yeah... except forums are lousy to begin with.
... A "modding platform with a mini-forum per mod" means "a site to upload files to, showing some meta-data about the files (some of which can be automatically derived from the files themselves), and linking to a forum thread". None of that is difficult, and it's a one-time setup instead of requiring posters and moderators to be careful about how the magical first post in a mod thread gets formatted.
... To the extent that forums are good for anything, they're good for discussions within large groups of people. Trying to bash them into a form that makes them good for something else is likely to take longer than doing the right thing in the first place, as well as being more fragile and unfriendly.

I would count your critics as o. k. if you made a usable alternative suggestion.

Alternative? Write a website! It can be really simple, to start. You need:
- a way for people to register and log in (see about reusing forum logins; it should be possible)
- a place for logged in people to upload their mods and fill in some basic metadata (Factorio version, etc. -- we have the requirements in the example template)
- a way for anyone (including guests) to search or browse the mods, and download them (preferably with support for automated download tools like wget).

This is enough to get us started, and I'd estimate it at maybe two days of work for me, if I could dedicate that kind of time to doing it. I could be under-estimating (like most software engineers, I'm prone to that), but it shouldn't take more than a week.

Then, once we have this, the next iteration could maybe add alternative downloads, or version history support (keep older uploads). The next iteration after that might have private sharing codes (for closed testers). A way to download more than one mod at a time (for convenience). Linking mods together when they're subsets of the same Big Mod (for discovery). All of that can come in step by step.

The question is: What can be improved NOW to make things better than NOW?
Which means: This is of course a temporary state. We don't know, how long the current state will last. It can take a year. I don't calculate for that this year. Maybe after 0.13 release?
You are really invited to make it better.

I think NOW is pretty okay as it is. I think we could change it in no more than a couple of weeks, if we wanted to.

The only regret I have in having entered this discussion in the first place is not being able to say "don't worry, I'll do it myself". It would be possible for me to do it (or, at least, start it), but I can't spare the time. But please, let's not make "temporary" solutions that we keep paying for years and years from now.

[ssilk]

I'm not sure that link goes where you intended?

Oh. Fixed. This was meant: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=13835

Okay, I like that idea, but I've too often seen makeshift "temporary" solutions be left permanent just because they worked "well enough". A database of Factorio mods right now (for v0.12+) would be pretty quick to collate, simply because there aren't that many of them. Now is the perfect time to do it -- and we can add the older mods slowly, over time, especially if their authors pitch in.

Well said. Hmmm. But I don't see someone doing that.
Try to understand me and my sight as moderator/admin: I would still prefer to have that information in a defined form, until some reliable and long-term database or other solution is available.

But part of discussion is also, how to make both: machine- and human readable.

My experience has been that machine-readable parts tend to be no more than marginally human-readable, unless the humans in question happen to be programmers. Not really a ringing endorsement.

You're right. On the other hand: It is possible. For example, I have a long experience in reading unformated stuff from advertises.
And still the above argument to have mod info in a some defined form is a useful thing, because even as human my eyes learn, how to read stuff very fast.

Alternative? Write a website! It can be really simple, to start. You need:
- a way for people to register and log in (see about reusing forum logins; it should be possible)
- a place for logged in people to upload their mods and fill in some basic metadata (Factorio version, etc. -- we have the requirements in the example template)
- a way for anyone (including guests) to search or browse the mods, and download them (preferably with support for automated download tools like wget).

O. k., this is of course the obviously right way.
But why should I do that? I mean it's my job, my living, I do this kind of stuff since >20 years, but in the evening I like to do other things.

This is enough to get us started, and I'd estimate it at maybe two days of work for me, if I could dedicate that kind of time to doing it. I could be under-estimating (like most software engineers, I'm prone to that), but it shouldn't take more than a week.

And I prefer to make a plan, that enables to hold the current state for more than half a year or so, cause I don't see any serious, reliable afford doing that.
Maybe (Maybe!) I find time to do something with it, when I have my slack-time. But, in the evenings like these I really like more to sit on my balcony, drink beer and make plans, that work guaranteed.

I think NOW is pretty okay as it is. I think we could change it in no more than a couple of weeks, if we wanted to.

And who is "we"?

To make it glass-clear: I really would like to have that kind of solution. But before anybody will put too much work into it: The devs plan this! It's definitely on their TODO-list. I mean they would be glad, if someone makes something. If someone wants to do that: Please talk with the devs first!! There are plans, there are needed things and so on.

The only regret I have in having entered this discussion in the first place is not being able to say "don't worry, I'll do it myself". It would be possible for me to do it (or, at least, start it), but I can't spare the time. But please, let's not make "temporary" solutions that we keep paying for years and years from now.

I made in 1992 some temporary solution, that still works. Everybody likes it.

[Narc]

I'm not sure that link goes where you intended?

Oh. Fixed. This was meant: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=13835

Um. I'll be honest, I really can't tell what you changed. But, if I may make a suggestion, this is what I'd like to see:

• Latest Release: v1.2.3, 2038-04-01
• Factorio Version: 3.42.1
• Download: Preferred, Alternate

They look nicer as bullets (they scan better visually), but the hyphens (as I've been saying) in, e.g., "Latest-Release", really aren't necessary. Compare the regexes: /latest release: v([0-9.]+), ([0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2})/i and /latest-release: v([0-9.]+), ([0-9]{4}-[0-9]{2}-[0-9]{2})/i.

I think I'd also like to see (both optional) a Website entry and a License entry... or maybe just declare that additional informational lines may be added if the poster wishes.

Okay, I like that idea, but I've too often seen makeshift "temporary" solutions be left permanent just because they worked "well enough". A database of Factorio mods right now (for v0.12+) would be pretty quick to collate, simply because there aren't that many of them. Now is the perfect time to do it -- and we can add the older mods slowly, over time, especially if their authors pitch in.

Well said. Hmmm. But I don't see someone doing that.
...And still the above argument to have mod info in a some defined form is a useful thing, because even as human my eyes learn, how to read stuff very fast.
...But why should I do that? I mean it's my job, my living, I do this kind of stuff since >20 years, but in the evening I like to do other things.
...in the evenings like these I really like more to sit on my balcony, drink beer and make plans, that work guaranteed.

I have to agree -- I have the same problem myself, and I've only been doing it for 11 years. I might be willing and able to support a small mod like the one I published; I'm not willing to support and develop a centralized mod store (even if it would be really easy to get started).

The only regret I have in having entered this discussion in the first place is not being able to say "don't worry, I'll do it myself". It would be possible for me to do it (or, at least, start it), but I can't spare the time. But please, let's not make "temporary" solutions that we keep paying for years and years from now.

I made in 1992 some temporary solution, that still works. Everybody likes it.

Good anecdote.

Honestly, the proposed template looks fine to me, aside from the minor quibbles above. Long descriptions, known bugs, etc., can all be free-form -- really, the only absolutely key piece of information that must be present is the official preferred (direct? can we require direct?) download link, isn't it? Most of the things a mod database would care about are part of the info.json, so the mod db bot will need to know where to get the mod from.

[ssilk]

I've changed it again, it includes again license and dependencies.

[Narc]

I like it.

A note on dependencies: since we're including them for human reference (the machine-readable listing is in info.json), can we suggest/require that they be listed as links to the specific mod threads?

Relatedly, do we want to mention optional dependencies? I'm thinking of something like RSO that can integrate with Dytech, Bob's mods, etc., but does not require them.

[ssilk]

I like it.

A note on dependencies: since we're including them for human reference (the machine-readable listing is in info.json), can we suggest/require that they be listed as links to the specific mod threads?

Hm.
The modder can just copy the line from the info.json. If he writes it correctly, later a robot can make links out of it.
I would say for mod-packs it is a must (but not in the header), the current practice is just o. k.

Relatedly, do we want to mention optional dependencies? I'm thinking of something like RSO that can integrate with Dytech, Bob's mods, etc., but does not require them.

Incompatibilities? Yes, but that doesn't belong to the header, because basically every mod is compatible to each other. The devs had put very big effort into that feature.
Hmmm. What you mean here is, that one mod is recommended to be used with another. Also yes, but also not in the header, that is part of the description.

[Narc]

Sounds good to me!

I decided to give it a try, and see what the template looks like when applied to a simple mod like my EvoGUI -- check it out over here. I think I rather like it -- pretty much the entirety of my first post was just writing the exact same condensed information in long hand.

@ssilk, what do you think? Looks good, right?

[ssilk]

Yeah. I really like this. The eye sees immediately the important informations. And it is not so difficult to create a simple parser, that can read the info - basically the download-link.

I re-added some optional fields. I really think the current info-header should be basically more or less exactly the same, as the info.json (where the info.json is missing some of those fields). https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 91&t=13835

And it seems, that this state doesn't last so long, see this fine article: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 37&t=13563

Maybe someone can write a mod, that generates info.json AND the forum-info-header?

[Narc]

I re-added some optional fields.

Thanks for the notice, I've updated the EvoGUI thread to match. I'm really liking the look of this template -- I wasn't enthused with it to begin with, but it's actually quite pretty; and I've always approved of the consistency a common template creates.

[ssilk]

For me this feels now right. I wait some days, also asking the devs for comments this time before I make it "official".