Expansion Candidate Radar

[Colossus]

A second-tier radar unit which shows Expansion Candidate chunks within a large radius.

Possibly could be unlocked along with Alien Technology, understanding the bugs better.

Turning the debug option on seems a bit cheaty to me and overpowered in that it shows them everywhere, even though it's very useful.

[bobingabout]

What is an Expansion Candidate chunk?

[ratchetfreak]

What is an Expansion Candidate chunk?

A chunk where biters can create a new base

Within 5 chunks but no closer than 3 in unmodded factorio.

There is an option to show them in the F4 debug overlays

[ssilk]

A second-tier radar unit which shows Expansion Candidate chunks within a large radius

Why do you need this?

[Colossus]

Why do you need this?

I feel that anything labeled as a "debug" option is meant for debug, not legitimate gameplay. I do feel that it is a useful tool that with the right settings would work well as an item. Even if later research enabled current radars to show the chunks in their revealed area I think it would be a good idea.

[ssilk]

Hm. Many options in the debug are useful information.

There is this thread: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... map#p72285

It's for me clear, that not only the map should have layers, also the world; the ALT-view extended.

[Colossus]

That's interesting. Yes, more options for map and world-view would be better, but certain things in debug are a bit too powerful to give the player directly as a map layer. The expansion chunks are one that I would like to see as a layer rather than a debug option, but I don't think it should show the state of all revealed map tiles as it does now, thus the idea for a radar and radius.

[bobingabout]

Okay, so if I understand this correctly... you want a radar, that shows where an enemy can extend their base into?

That's definitey not the first peice of information I'd be interested in...

[bobucles]

Revealing AI behavior is pretty damn cheaty. Dev tools shouldn't be a thing in regular play.

[Klonan]

I think its a great idea!

The expansion chunks are really useful to see, but you're right that its not gameplay friendly to have it as a debug option.

Having it as a new radar system, maybe a equipment version too for mobile chunk revealing would be really nice, and balanced too. Making it a more late game tech (maybe with alien packs) can negate some of the 'overpowered' sentiment, after studying the aliens for a long time its only natural you would begin to be able to create techniques like this

[Marconos]

Easier solution ... fix biters so that they can expand to anywhere that they can get to. Only stay away from active powered equipment. Beyond that they can expand right beside your rail line etc. So every chunk is expansion, no radar needed, just walls

[Oxyd]

Yes, we did talk about nerfing victory poles just today. Hopefully we'll be able to get that in 0.13.

[Kane]

Yes, we did talk about nerfing victory poles just today. Hopefully we'll be able to get that in 0.13.

Nerfing them is simple as setting base building to 0 but I guess that is annoying because then they build on tracks and such

[Oxyd]

Yes, we did talk about nerfing victory poles just today. Hopefully we'll be able to get that in 0.13.

Nerfing them is simple as setting base building to 0 but I guess that is annoying because then they build on tracks and such

Yes, exactly – this is too simple. We need to do something a little bit smarter.

[Smarty]

Yes, we did talk about nerfing victory poles just today. Hopefully we'll be able to get that in 0.13.

i never used the victory pole thing was and still am too lazy to place one

but yes it is kinda cheating placing a item and blocking the biters from building

[ratchetfreak]

Yes, exactly – this is too simple. We need to do something a little bit smarter.

maybe only take into account the production and military buildings

or allow expansion into the chunk but they first go to destroy the pole. That would defeat the victory poles

[Kane]

Yes, exactly – this is too simple. We need to do something a little bit smarter.

maybe only take into account the production and military buildings

or allow expansion into the chunk but they first go to destroy the pole. That would defeat the victory poles

This could be pretty taxing I feel though. Since Victory Poles can be anything people would just place more and more down as time went on. I assume calculation wise would be quite high scanning always for things to attack.

[Colossus]

Whether the biter code changes and victory poling is no longer viable, or if victory poling turn into setting up "strategic" defense outposts, I still think some late game research into biter behavior and a way to counteract and predict their expansion and attacks, whether as a radar or something else would be very helpful to counteract the destructive neighbors.

[ratchetfreak]

Yes, exactly – this is too simple. We need to do something a little bit smarter.

maybe only take into account the production and military buildings

or allow expansion into the chunk but they first go to destroy the pole. That would defeat the victory poles

This could be pretty taxing I feel though. Since Victory Poles can be anything people would just place more and more down as time went on. I assume calculation wise would be quite high scanning always for things to attack.

Not really, turn off distance to player made structure in the check but instead when telling to spawn new base they will first attack and destroy the structures in range.

For more intelligence you can have them avoid heavily fortified areas (where a lot of biters have lost their lives) or only try to attack there when the attacking force is judged strong enough.

[Rahbek]

Yes, we did talk about nerfing victory poles just today. Hopefully we'll be able to get that in 0.13.

If you plan to nerf it please give this some thought too:
In my current game i got so fed up by the biter mechanics that i wanted to stop playing. Only using victory poling brought the fun back.
Now maybe to explain that better i should mention that I am using (like many) the RSO mod to make trains a viable option and also natural evolution to make fighting a little more fun.
Whenever biters cross any rails in my huge rail network to build a new base on the other side they destroy at least some power lines and often enough some rails as well which resulted in me being entirely busy with fixing power and rails between my main base and my outposts so that building new outposts, expanding or actually doing the fun things in this game: tweaking my base and my factories and making it bigger became no option anymore at all.
My Railnetwork is way way too big to wall off entirely and the waves of biters are way too huge as well for a somewhat ressource-realistic wall/gun (or laser) combo to actually succeed in defending it without being overrun.

Without victory poling i cant realize the huge factory i have in mind without using the peaceful mode - and that isnt fun either.
I dont mind fighting the biters. I just like to create my own frontier and safe zones so i can focus on what is fun and not run back and forth fixing things without having time to creating anything new.