A reliable and cheap first wall against the creepers

[ssilk]

Building a first defense is most important to make fast steps in research etc. because otherwise the creepers take too much of your attention and time.

But 100 ammo per gun, which an inserter will feed into the gun turret makes a wall of gun turrets really expensive. Can this be limited to 10 or so, please? I think this has been already requested. Or is there a reason against it?

It would also reduce the costs of building a wall, if the burner-inserter would be able to feed himself (and would be able to take a coal/wood, even if he is empty). That way, only a belt is needed, one side with coal, other side with ammo. No electric power, no expensive inserters.

This would be a fine way to build a reliable and cheap first wall very fast.

[n9103]

I've got to vote against the burner self-inserter, too OP and somewhat exploitable.
As for the turrets, I'm against dropping it down to 10, but 100 does seem a bit too high. Maybe something like 40.
It needs to be a significant number, so that your early un-automated lab protection can survive without being refilled after every single attack.
As for it being expensive to fill a large number... uh, maybe you're over building or being too automated too fast?
If you can't support 2+ factories churning out ammo, and still supply most of your iron plate needs, you're probably automating too fast and should still be hand-filling them.

[ssilk]

I've got to vote against the burner self-inserter, too OP and somewhat exploitable.

Yes. You are right with the current burner inserter. It won't be, if he would use more energy, than the electric (currently it uses only ridiculous less). Then the "self feeding burner inserter" would be ideal to use for such tasks like feeding something every 10 minutes.

As for the turrets, I'm against dropping it down to 10, but 100 does seem a bit too high. Maybe something like 40.
It needs to be a significant number, so that your early un-automated lab protection can survive without being refilled after every single attack.

No, no, no. the stack keeps the same (100), but inserters fill it only to 10. The same mechanism as with every other device, never filled the coal directly into the furnace? Ever wondered, why the inserters feed only 5 coal into the burners, whiles you can feed up to 64?

As for it being expensive to fill a large number... uh, maybe you're over building or being too automated too fast?
If you can't support 2+ factories churning out ammo, and still supply most of your iron plate needs, you're probably automating too fast and should still be hand-filling them.

Hmmm. My last factory had 8 in the beginning. problem 1 is, even with 20 it takes about half a minute to fill one turret (about 8 are filled simultaneously).
The problem is for example, that when you switch later to piercing bullets, it takes aeons tho replace it. In the game before I had 20 piercing bullet assemblies about 40 steel furnaces and much more other stuff, just to replace that.

[Balinor]

I would prefer it if we could choose the amount to fill to, and not just on turrets but all placements that can hold an inventory.

[gr0mpel]

I would prefer it if we could choose the amount to fill to, and not just on turrets but all placements that can hold an inventory.

good idea
this would be (even though not entirely "early-game-proof") possible if the turrets could be integrated in the cable-logic system i.e. smart inserter ammo <40

[wrtlprnft]

Maybe, in addition to red and green wire conditions, inserters could have a condition slider for the device they insert into?

This should then be available before the smart inserter tier (maybe anything starting from fast inserters?), and default to <6.

[Holy-Fire]

It's almost as if I'm playing a different game from you guys.

I've never loaded a gun turret with an inserter, and I've never used piercing magazines with turrets.

I start with a turret or two with magazines I load manually, that's enough for a while. Later I make one magazine assembling machine (producing much more than I need) and add a few more turrets. Than I move to laser turrets - they're long-range, powerful, take less space, and most importantly easy to use.

I haven't done the math whether they give more bang for the buck than gun turrets, but even if not - it's moot since I haven't encountered a situation when you need that much firepower.

(They're also extremely useful for attacking creeper bases, for those who haven't tried yet).

[gr0mpel]

im mostly using laser turrets as well.

but i understand the point. when i start a new game, i dont produce any laser turrets or potions in the first 5-10 hours (except a few handmade potions to get fast transport belts, AM2, and smart inserters), because i start my factories
huge and therefore a "few" gun turrets are needed.

another point is that laser turrets need huge amounts of energy and if you want to play with only solar energy (the mods available make that very interesting - ral modpak and solar extension) the laser turrets are not the first option.
of course the laser turrets are awesome and mow down anything that comes

[ssilk]

I would prefer it if we could choose the amount to fill to, and not just on turrets but all placements that can hold an inventory.

+1

Edit
And to the rest: this behavior belongs to the item, in which the requester fills something in. I think it is a request to the inserter: gime that and that. And the inserter tries to fulfill that. This means, that it is in every case a feature of the requesting item, and not of the inserter. Just to make it clear.

And lasers are currently a good backup-weapon. I put them behind the big wall at points, which are more frequented, like edges... The reason for preferring guns vs. lasers is their significant need of energy even in standby, while gun turrets fire also when the energy drops out - and that can happen fast. when having about 100 mines online the energy drops out really fast and you have no chance to build steam engines as backup before, because it is too big and just uses too much coal. With piercing bullets and a wall of guns the creepers are no problem.

edit2:
Now I got it! You never played to the end. Finished the rocket defense? What follows is... I do not say more, but you cannot do that with lasers. Just much to few energy!

PS: I think most of you never played with creepers switched to rich. Do that!

PPS: Hehe, I wait for the moment, when new types of creepers are introduced. An energy thief for example. Then you have nice, but useless weapons.

[Holy-Fire]

edit2:
Now I got it! You never played to the end. Finished the rocket defense? What follows is... I do not say more, but you cannot do that with lasers. Just much to few energy!

PS: I think most of you never played with creepers switched to rich. Do that!

I'm mopping the floor with the rocket defense wave.

But you're right, I'm not playing on rich, should try that. But I'd be fine even with 5 times as many creepers so I don't know what difference it would make.

In my current game, in 12 hours I'm rocket defense ready. At that point I have 400 laser turrets (most of them guarding a secure zone with my logistic factory), 80 steam engines and 700 solar panels. Turrets idle at 8kW, fighting the final wave they get to 15kW tops; and I'm good for 60kW.

Of course, the bottleneck for finishing is not building the defense, it's the research for rocket defense itself.

I've played past that point, 14.5 hours from the start I have 2300 solar panels. All those productivity modules make my assembling machines hungry as they churn out more productivity modules.


As for the energy grid collapsing, you just need to make sure you're overprovisioning coal. If you don't have enough coal you quickly enter a vicious cycle. But if you have enough coal, nothing bad happens if you exceed your steam engine capacity.


Screenshot of my secure zone (12 hours): (In case you're wondering, the damaged walls are from a previous time when... I didn't overprovision coal and my electric grid collapsed.

[ssilk]

Really impressive! 12 hours.... That wouldn't be possible when trying with belts. I wonder why I didn't get the idea to just remove the belts, but I think it's just bad old habit... no, i really would miss the belts. And of course are the lasers with that much cheap energy are much more efficient. I would do the same...

That's also the point I try to explain: gun turrets have only disadvantages, when using as reliable defense. They need power, belt, inserters, and ammo. Lasers need only power. And they can be built tighter (2x1 vs 1x1). And when I see that, I think: put every effort in only one type of weapon is stupid. When the creepers would destroy your poles you would be very dead.

Hm. Btw. Do you have any problems with the logistic bots? I think this is exactly the use of them! And this means, that the logistic bots are your very early target, yes? I would like to see the factory just before you could built that.

Hm.

So I suggest additionally to the above some balancing:
- piercing ammo should give guns also a better range, because it is so expensive and need much of it.
- guns/rockets act like a requester chest, when they have the module for it (they will request the same items as they request for inserters). This will also add some interesting interaction logistic bots vs. creepers.
- lasers might need more power, especially when firing (it needs a lot of energy for lasers to destroy something).
- rockets should also have a use. I think new creeper types will do it...
- in the end I would like to have the basic weapons ( guns, lasers and rockets) to have their special use, so that concentration on one type of weapon won't have any chance to survive.
- rotating should enable me to place guns also that dense in vertical direction. Currently the guns take always the same width/height.

[Holy-Fire]

Hm. Btw. Do you have any problems with the logistic bots? I think this is exactly the use of them! And this means, that the logistic bots are your very early target, yes? I would like to see the factory just before you could built that.

I found that logistic robots are too expensive to be effective before you do some upgrade research (With the research, 200 robots easily cope with what you saw). So I set up 4 assembling machines for blue Science pack and a good resource flow before starting to build that. In 6 hours I have the first iteration of the logistic factory ready.

Here are screenshots of the factory 4.5 hours into the game. At this point I have 100 mining drills, 40 steam engines, and 60 laser turrets.

[ssilk]

Very nice,thanks.
Looks not much different in my factory at this point. Like you, the more I play I try to separate smelting from production and make production more open, using more space, because that way it changes easier. Here I begin normally to produce the first logistic bots. 10-20 or so are enough. The distances must be short! I use them only to bring the four different items to the blue potion assembly street and the produced blue potion to the research street. I think there are many ways how to do this first step. But you're absolutely right, with the modules etc., no more complicated assembly streets are needed. Perhaps I would assemble electric circuits into a belt, because its needed so much, and try to bring the raw material directly to the assemblies...

Hum. I was the one who cried loudest, the game is too slow etc. Now it's much faster with that and it changes direction. It was clear, that it will change, but now I'm surprised... But for the furnaces the belts keep, otherwise the logistic bots would be overwhelmed. I think this should be hooded. I see more and more, that it should be a good idea to built the plates as far as possible near the mines and transport that to the center, because the length of the belt can be seen as a storage.

[Holy-Fire]

Here I begin normally to produce the first logistic bots. 10-20 or so are enough. The distances must be short! I use them only to bring the four different items to the blue potion assembly street

I did that in one game, but since creepers can attack bots it would completely mess it up; and building a defense perimeter is too expensive for such small benefit - just belts for blue potions isn't too difficult.

So once the belt-based factory gives me what I need, I move on to a separate purely logistic factory, and that's when I can really scale. By that time logistic bots are fairly cheap, and with a compact layout and some upgrades they do better than any belt.

I still use belts for everything outside of the secure zone though.

The bottleneck is the time it takes to run around placing solar panels and accumulators (crafting those isn't even an issue). If I had an issue with raw materials, I'd replace the steel furnaces with electric furnaces inside the secure zone, with modules I'd get almost 2 plates for every ore.

I see more and more, that it should be a good idea to built the plates as far as possible near the mines and transport that to the center, because the length of the belt can be seen as a storage.

Not a very effective storage... You can simply build chests for that, and it would take too much time to build a smelting line for every new mine.

Also, if you use electric furnaces and productivity modules, iron ores are denser than plates so you'd rather move that across the map.