Outpost logistics

[ssilk]

I realy hope that the devs thought of something like this when they posted the following item in their roadmap:
(If time allows!) more circuit logic (circuits for electricity, trains, liquids, etc.)

That's the reason, why I'm so behind to discuss it now: They take many of their inspiration from such discussions.

And yes, as far as I know their development, I think we will become something which helps. Eventually not in v0.10 and/or not really finished, but it shows the perspective and is useable.

[BurnHard]

Well in the end I hope they get all things right, regardless of the way they do.

My humble view of things:

1.) Complete replayability, some sort of endless-mode
2.) Absolute Beginners find a way into the game and stay motivated and can win the game WITHOUT...
3.) ...Circuit Systems with logic switches and so on, which are of course very nice for experienced players and therefore should of course have a place.
4.) Game immersion. I have to admit, eg World of Warcraft, the game mainly hooked me because of its stunning music and wonderful designed world. AND
5.) I didn't had the feeling to fall behind others just because I liked to roleplay a lot, fishing for hours etc. Link to factorio: Thats why I really want to see endless resourcefields somehow realized (like oilfields). I want to build enormous structures, at the moment I am sad (YES) everytime I have to deconstruct a depleted mining field ^^ And it gives me some sort of pressure, I want to play for fun and to relax (no problem with very hard enemys and so on).

[ssilk]

Hm. Well, I can imagine such an "endless mode", which behaves like so. It's some kind of fish-tank, yes fish-tank-mode is a good name for that.

But I see your wanted endlessly in automatism: Resource field depleted, robots pack their sack and go to the next field. Endless in the sense of Factorio means for me spreading into the fields, not staying all the time at one place. What you want is something, which already exists with the Test mode mod. Or as said some kind of mode.

Because assumed, the task for the "normal game" is really to bring 1 million people down from a colony ship, I think it is not possible to "win" the game without going into that direction. And that means we need to use automatism.

[kovarex]

Yes, or having filters in cargo-wagon, that would allow have one cargo-wagon with supply of 16 types of materials.

Edit: I think I will try to do some kind of separate logistic systems connected by trains and see what is the easiest solution to make it possible.

[inthev01d]

Alright, that method is actually working fairly decently as an interim solution until the developer comes up with something more robust. One very small thing that would likely be pretty easy to add would be to let us connect the Red/Green logistic network to a train station. When a train is at the station, its contents would be added to the network.

Now that sounds good, having a red/green wire connected to the train station kind of feels right and like it fits the current circuit network model (without thinking about how this might work in detail yet, since this would mean "chests" appearing and disappearing).

[ssilk]

Yes, or having filters in cargo-wagon, that would allow have one cargo-wagon with supply of 16 types of materials.
Edit: I think I will try to do some kind of separate logistic systems connected by trains and see what is the easiest solution to make it possible.

Like "go to station A, pick up 5 stacks of ore, 5 stacks of copper... Goto station B and drop it..."?

[GewaltSam]

I've also had this problem and here's my current attempt to solve it:
I haven't tried this yet because I currently have no time to play, but I'd like to hear your ideas about it!

* Have a supply train with only one cargo wagon
* Have two stations in your main base:
___ The first station simply unloads everything into storage or provider chests
___ The second station has a couple requester chests that hold small-ish amounts of items you want to distribute. E.g. 120 repair tools, 30 laser turrets, 60 wall sections… whatever fits into 1 wagon

1) The train is empty at first
2) It goes to the second station and is loaded with the provider chest contents, then quickly departs before they can be refilled (5 seconds)
3) The train goes to each outpost, one after the other. Each outpost takes whatever is currently needed (missing in the local logistic network)
4) The train goes to the first station and any remaining items are unloaded
5) repeat from 2)

So the basic idea is to have a train that is loaded with a predefined assortment of items, and unloaded as needed.
It's not 100% accurate and may need belts and smart inserters for additional delay if there's a roboport close to the chests, but it might just work!
Maybe hope this gives some of you food for thought.

Of course, this would be quite a bit more elegant if the cargo wagon could temporarily become part of a circuit network while the train is parked at a station

Edit: This is mostly intended to bring supplies that are needed regularly, like repair tools, but the supply train could hold everything that is needed to build a complete outpost in theory.

I worked out a pretty similar version; maybe a liiitle bit more elegant, but it's pretty easy to work errors in.

I have nearly the same setup as v01d, only i have a central circuit network that connects the storages of every outpost with the inserters that load stuff into the supply train. Now i tell the inserters to only load stuff when the amount of items in the outpost storages drops under a certain level. then the inserters start working, the train drives around, inserters in stations only unload when the stuff is needed in an outpost (they get that information by local circuit networks that connects them with the storage of their outpost), then the train rides back. The only thing you need to control is that the inserters which load the trains have the numbers of all outposts added up, and you must never go above that number. If you do, the wagon will run full with stuff at some point. But if you get that managed, the train will have only some remains riding around, which isnt even that bad; outposts will take it as soon as they need it.

I think I'll add a buffer station in my main station also which takes everything that was not needed, and loads it in provider chests.

[ssilk]

I think this can work. But I don't think, that everyone gets that managed.

[GewaltSam]

It's more of a workaround, and setting the inserters on my supply station anew every time i build an outpost or need more or less materials is kind of messy. I would prefer a good circuit logic or smart wagons any day of the week. But, well, what can you do

[ssilk]

Ok, I make a small list of what is needed to make that work and I try to formulate it as open as possible:

- automateable: I need to set up maximum 2 bigger things and the stuff in-between and then this will deliver the demand without exactly configuring every little item. And it would be really easy to set up, cause it could work just by setting up the two end-stations.
- bi-directional: transport in both directions should be possible. It should not be so, that if I set it up in one direction that I cannot add the other, because it creates a self-feedback or other funny things happen.
- not faster then the train: if it is faster, it will replace the train. Indeed it should be much slower than trains.
- not more capacity then basic belts: same reason as with train. A basic belt carries about 700 items/min. I think to 100-200 here. This is enough to support building up very big outposts.
- indirect transport: instead of delivering items directly from A to C it should be possible to deliver from A to B and then to C.

Some systems I'm thinking of:
- funicular. Has the advantage of relatively easy implementation (just posts and steel wires between, the end stations are also the exchange points).
- carts on a own street/rail-system. This is complicated to set up, cause the streets must be built first. There is the question, how the stations interact and how they can order the stuff from the carts.
- free running carts. No streets but in general the same problem with the massive interaction.
- pipes. Some pipe system like in Portal2 or Futurerama. Again difficult to set up.
- via train/rail system: would be the nicest, cause it must be built not depending on other stuff. But a really working solution is very complex to set up for the players. And if there is a jam it influences everything else. I think it should have some of the above criterias, but for the reliability/complexity I mean it is high-end stuff.

A bit off-topic:

Besides that steady stream of items we need another system, which is really fast. This can be used to order needed items for construction.
- super fast. Order is delivered within seconds (if pre-produced).
- very expensive. Rocket delivery or so...
- one direction only.
- nothing to built up then the sender-station.

[GewaltSam]

I don't know, I always see the option to make trains work like this also. High possible volume, average to setup (maybe difficult in conjunction with a circuit network), really fast - not as fast as a few seconds like you demanded, but I guess its fast enough and some forward planning wouldn't hurt

[ssilk]

I understand. But I really tried very hard different combinations of railway transport to support outposts and imagined and played though some combinations of possibilities; and my conclusion was, that it is possible to use railway network for that, but only for some view items. Not all needed stuff, that is just too much afford in my eyes.

The conclusion is:
- Either you bring the raw materials (iron plates, copper plates, engines, batteries etc.) to the outpost, begin to craft by hand, create assemblies etc. which produce the needed items.
- Or you have some central factory, which produces everything and you bring the stuff from there to the outposts.

I prefer number 2, but I would say number 1 should be possible.

[Khyron]

The way I currently handle new outposts is to take everything I need, travel by car and the first thing I build is the roboport. I usually throw down a few solar/accu sets to power the robo. Then I clear forest with the robo. After that I expand the solar/accu array with robos.

I tend to build mining fields manually because each field is unique and most times I've tried laying out with robos it has ended up being more fiddly than if i just do all miners in one pass, then all belts in one pass then fill with modules in one pass. Similarly with walls and perimeter defenses. Although I use a predictable pattern, most of it is based on running and placing walls or powerlines. The only part i stop and do carefully is placing laser turrets and lamps.

Then for the train station itself, I probably should get in the habit of using a template, but again I usually do it manually. The only thing is I would need to consistently orient my stations East-West (preferably), but that's not really necessary with oil bases. How/where I build the station seems to be quite variable depending on the position of the resource field, direction of approach of the rail, the solar fields and the presence of the nearest biter nest.

I find setting up new resource bases to be extremely time intensive. So much that I seem to get a backlog of jobs at my main base. It's hard enough to create a window where your main base is running smoothly enough that you can get away to build the outpost to begin with! And there's a tricky balance between having a new resource base last long enough that it feels like a worthwhile time investment to build versus it lasting so long that you only need to do it once. That's more a map generation issue, but it's all related. Add on to that, if you're not familiar or confident with rail or the game in general... well it's no wonder some people want to build belts everywhere.

But simply laying the track between bases and clearing a path takes about the same amount of time.

A few ideas for speeding up the process:

• Create a small, inefficient, highly polluting portable generator. Just enough to power a roboport so that you don't have to build the initial solar field by hand. The inefficiency of the generator is the reason you only use it for short term work. It would have to be much worse efficiency than boilers OR require a different fuel type. I hope one day the game differentiates fuels as combustible and flammable, but that's another issue...
• A rail track-laying machine that automatically clears trees and builds track along a path you designate. I imagine ghost rail extending off a real rail where you click once at the start, once at each waypoint and twice at the end (or something like that). Then you activate the rail-laying machine and it slowly chugs along laying that track. I have seen the track-laying mod and it's cool but it feels a bit cheat-y due to the speed it lays tracks and the way it just sort of pops trees. One of the challenges is laying ghost track through an area that has forests. So, for eg. I want to click once at my base, then get in my car and drive to the outpost then click twice. The ghost rail uses a shortest path with the longest straight sections between those two points.
• Mobile ore harvesters. This has been suggested before, but importantly they should be slow and weak so that you still want them to only operate within a defended base, rather than having the harvesters drive all over the map from your main base. It's also important to keep the rail system useful. What they give you is a way to avoid micro-managing the electric miners, belts and modules. They could be balanced by making them higher tech so that you want to use electric miners for your main base and in the early game but move to mobile mining rigs for outposts and late game. They could be powered by fuel or electric powered. I imagine they would come with a receiving station which itself ties the harvesters to an area of operation like roboports do for drones.
• A button on the roboport "Cut all trees in range".
• Some kind of way to quickly build perimeter defenses. Maybe an interface on the roboport, or maybe a new kind of blueprint. Imagine opening the interface and seeing a ghost 100x100 wall at the roboport's perimeter. Then you can drag each of the 4 perimeters closer to the roboport as required, like resizing a box. If you move one side further than 100 tiles it leaves that side open. In addition, there is a template for corner defenses and another template for straight defenses. These templates are automatically applied to the wall segments in a best-fit manner. Click to accept design. And of course, any trees in the way are marked for harvesting.

[ssilk]

Khyron, that are very good suggestions.
I always have the same problems.

With the power: You can place big power poles while you are driving, but the algorithm has problems with forests or simple stones, you need to stop and drive back, but that costs many many time. So, yes, a super cheap energy source could be useful. But instead of a highly polluting generator I think either to
- a small atom/fusion reactor,
- or big accumulators, which can be loaded anywhere, transported and unloaded. Same principle as with the oil barrels. Isn't there a mod for it?
- Or a way to automatically place power poles so that they are all connected.

A rail track laying machine: yes. There is a mod exactly for that, I'm not sure, if you know that. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=4287 I used that now for thousands of kilo tiles and it makes so much fun to drive around with that. But there are many more needs with that, before I could say it works perfect.

Mobile harvesters: also available as mod. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=3450 Not tested yet. But yes, I see the need for that and how cool it was in dune, when suddenly half of your harvesters where gone by the worms. I see there also the need for patrolling, guarding harvesters, streets/roads.

This button: i think that is too special. I think we need some kind of simple filter for the deconstruction. There is a suggestion here about it. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ion+filter

And your last: well I mean that's what blueprints are for. But I think also here: this is too special. It would be good enough to be able to edit an existing blueprint.
And in this case: I never needed to close my perimeters fully, it is enough to place a big pole with 4-8 lasers and a wall around it about every 15-30 tiles. The incoming biters will always attack the lasers, not the mines. Ok, I had some cases, where some came through, but, well, that's a bit of rest-risk.

[Khyron]

Khyron, that are very good suggestions.

Thanks, ssilk Those suggestions I think others have made (nothing new around here ) and they're also just evolutionary ideas rather than revolutionary. Not sure which I'd prefer. For now, those ideas would satisfy me.

With the power: You can place big power poles while you are driving, but the algorithm has problems with forests or simple stones, you need to stop and drive back, but that costs many many time. So, yes, a super cheap energy source could be useful. But instead of a highly polluting generator I think either to
- a small atom/fusion reactor,
- or big accumulators, which can be loaded anywhere, transported and unloaded. Same principle as with the oil barrels. Isn't there a mod for it?
- Or a way to automatically place power poles so that they are all connected.

I wasn't thinking so much about pollution, more about efficiency, like the boiler is 50%, maybe the diesel generator is 30%. A diesel generator is exactly what we'd use in a situation like this in real life. It fits the problem well and piggy backs on the oil system.

Nuclear power is a whole other issue, which I regard as a more permanent and ongoing energy solution. Diesel generator is for a few minutes until you build the solar array with bots.

Sometimes if the outpost is not too far I run large electric poles. Driving while throwing massive electric poles out seems pretty funny. I wonder if we'll always be permitted to do that? Also you have to avoid forests while driving. Hopefully one day we get a car that isn't made out of glass.

A rail track laying machine: yes. There is a mod exactly for that, I'm not sure, if you know that. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=4287 I used that now for thousands of kilo tiles and it makes so much fun to drive around with that. But there are many more needs with that, before I could say it works perfect.

Yep, seen it and I agree - more refinement needed. I should probably post my reasons for not using it in the mod thread.

Mobile harvesters: also available as mod. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=3450 Not tested yet. But yes, I see the need for that and how cool it was in dune, when suddenly half of your harvesters where gone by the worms. I see there also the need for patrolling, guarding harvesters, streets/roads.

Damn, that mod is only for the player to drive. The miners are not automatic. Also: Dune = awesome!

This button: i think that is too special. I think we need some kind of simple filter for the deconstruction. There is a suggestion here about it. https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ion+filter

Mmm, you're right. The thing that bugs me is seeing trees out of range with red x and no way to get rid of it other than go and chop them down. But a more advanced deconstruction filter could be useful.

And your last: well I mean that's what blueprints are for. But I think also here: this is too special. It would be good enough to be able to edit an existing blueprint. And in this case: I never needed to close my perimeters fully, it is enough to place a big pole with 4-8 lasers and a wall around it about every 15-30 tiles. The incoming biters will always attack the lasers, not the mines. Ok, I had some cases, where some came through, but, well, that's a bit of rest-risk.

Yah I have seen the big pole & lasers defense islands and I can see it works. I still like to fully enclose, it's just a preference. We have the gate coming too, can't wait for that. Maybe some future biter type will make the gate and fully enclosing a better strategy?

But anyway, the problem with blueprints and perimeter defense is: to make a blueprint you first have to create the situation by hand. Also, for perimeter defenses, you probably have to make puzzle-pieces (like corner, edge, gate) and then you have to run all over the outpost placing the puzzle-piece blueprints multiple times. At that point you might as well run and build wall. I'm sure my suggestion isn't ideal but we can all see these problems... hopefully someone thinks of something better.

[The Phoenixian]

A few ideas for speeding up the process:

[*]A rail track-laying machine that automatically clears trees and builds track along a path you designate. I imagine ghost rail extending off a real rail where you click once at the start, once at each waypoint and twice at the end (or something like that). Then you activate the rail-laying machine and it slowly chugs along laying that track. I have seen the track-laying mod and it's cool but it feels a bit cheat-y due to the speed it lays tracks and the way it just sort of pops trees. One of the challenges is laying ghost track through an area that has forests. So, for eg. I want to click once at my base, then get in my car and drive to the outpost then click twice. The ghost rail uses a shortest path with the longest straight sections between those two points.

I will say two phrases: 1 Heck yes. 2 RTS style waypoints are a must.

[*]Mobile ore harvesters. This has been suggested before, but importantly they should be slow and weak so that you still want them to only operate within a defended base, rather than having the harvesters drive all over the map from your main base. It's also important to keep the rail system useful. What they give you is a way to avoid micro-managing the electric miners, belts and modules. They could be balanced by making them higher tech so that you want to use electric miners for your main base and in the early game but move to mobile mining rigs for outposts and late game. They could be powered by fuel or electric powered. I imagine they would come with a receiving station which itself ties the harvesters to an area of operation like roboports do for drones.

Counter proposal: how well would it work if blueprints called to place down ghost mines where there are no resource field placed down ghosts of everything that could be placed and then simply edited out the miners rather than placing nothing as they do now? That way you could have a few large generic mines on any given ore patch and wouldn't have to worry about fiddling about.with the specifics.

[*]Some kind of way to quickly build perimeter defenses. Maybe an interface on the roboport, or maybe a new kind of blueprint. Imagine opening the interface and seeing a ghost 100x100 wall at the roboport's perimeter. Then you can drag each of the 4 perimeters closer to the roboport as required, like resizing a box. If you move one side further than 100 tiles it leaves that side open. In addition, there is a template for corner defenses and another template for straight defenses. These templates are automatically applied to the wall segments in a best-fit manner. Click to accept design. And of course, any trees in the way are marked for harvesting.[/list]

Weird thought, and I'm going to do a bit of self promotion here, but what if that automatic rail layer had a sibling in a construction robot with a short reach (say 2-3 tiles on each side of the track) built into a train car?

Moreover, what if you gave it the ability to tile blueprints such that whenever it reached the end of one blueprint it would start over until given the command to stop (Like say, encountering another blueprint)? Combine that with regular blueprints and you could lay down power grids, roboports, stations, and especially, defensive perimeters all from train tracks.

Once you have the ability to automatically and reliably place electric lines like that, the problems of setting up roboports and new power stations should be less of a concern.

Also with it comes the ability to automatically maintain certain structures far outside the range of roboports.