Better/more efficient power production?

[Drizzt321]

So, with there being only 2 power production types (solar & steam plant), I propose either a higher efficiency steam plant (e.g. using higher pressure, higher temperature water). Maybe have oil/petroleum based boilers that can burn hotter?

As for late game, obviously you don't have uranium at this time, but that could be added and form the basis of fission power plants. Or when you get the mini-fusion power plant for the modular armor? Why isn't there a full sized fusion power plant? That'd make a lot of sense. And be really expensive to make, but so's the mini-fusion.

And for the more environmentally friendly, how about orbital solar beamed power? Add in for the militarily minded, a solar pumped laser to attack ground based targets

[jorgenRe]

So yea as the rules clearly says at:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3394
By SSilk:

2. Does it already exist?
You have the absolutely great idea about having a new type of splitter. You thought hours for that and are now keen to write about it.
Really new?? There are tons of suggestions for the splitter, for example. It is unlikely, that there is none, which is not somehow your suggestion. Please, use the forum search and learn how to search in the suggestion forum only! use also the right words for search, see point 4.

And here is some of what i found:

Why isn't there a full sized fusion power plant?

Already suggested:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ion#p24138

orbital solar beamed power

Already suggested:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ion#p15554

Maybe have oil/petroleum based boilers that can burn hotter?

Pretty sure thats already planned by the devs

So basic advice before making a suggestion please use the search function and see if anybody else havent already suggested that.

[Drizzt321]

Ok, yes, I didn't use the search.

What about the thought of higher pressure (e.g. Mk2) steam engines to get more power out of the same footprint? Might need more boilers to get the temp up, perhaps.

[ssilk]

Hehe, jorgenRe, that was my part. no seriously: I'm glad that my guides begin to work.

@Drizzt311: the boilers already take solid oil, it has much more energy. https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fuel

And cube made some investigations about steam engines end of last year, I think that stuff will be introduced sometimes. This isn't so easy, cause - as I know them - this should eventually work for all types of liquids... But who knows?

This should answer also the higher pressure? The problem is, that fluids behave very differently to gas. With limited CPU power it becomes a problem to calculate the pressure in every pipe with gas, because that depends very much from temperature and volume.

[Drizzt321]

Hehe, jorgenRe, that was my part. no seriously: I'm glad that my guides begin to work.

@Drizzt311: the boilers already take solid oil, it has much more energy. https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fuel

And cube made some investigations about steam engines end of last year, I think that stuff will be introduced sometimes. This isn't so easy, cause - as I know them - this should eventually work for all types of liquids... But who knows?

This should answer also the higher pressure? The problem is, that fluids behave very differently to gas. With limited CPU power it becomes a problem to calculate the pressure in every pipe with gas, because that depends very much from temperature and volume.

Yup, that solid fuel is awesome!

As for higher pressure, is a temperature of 100 meaning max temperature? Or in Celsius? If it's in Celsius, then they already have to deal with fluid and/or gas. Because at 100 it's boiling and you deal with steam, but under (which can happen at the end of a long chain or insufficient boilers) you get a liquid. Based on the imagery used on the pipes coming out of the boilers, they are treated as water, which if the assumption is that the pipes can handle X pressure, if the boilers can boost the temperature, then the output can be up to X pressure, and even if it's above 100C, it'll stay liquid as long as the pressure is enough.

Alternatively, add a 2nd stage or boiler type which requires new 'reinforced pipes' to feed a few 'high pressure steam engines' which will give substantially more power each (1.5MW? 2MW? dunno). It just seems that you either require vast arrays of solar panels + accumulators, or only very large arrays of steam engines with lots of boilers.

Something that doesn't appear to be modeled (and I'm not sure it's bad thing) is line loss. The further away from power generation (and at lower voltages), the more power is lost rather than getting to it's destination. But that'd get pretty darn complicated, I think, to do well in a game like this.

Honestly, it's just the part where I need to keep finding space sometimes to add additional steam engines. It gets to be a PITA after you have the defensive perimeter setup sometimes.

[ssilk]

Currently the water is a liquid with 100 degrees. Nothing else. Is it Celsius? Dunno. Is it a fluid? Dunno, the simulation let it open. More interpretations are useless.

We can only hope, that every liquid becomes a boiling point which is used to change the aggregate. But the forum members have discussed this change of aggregate many times. In my eyes the solution is, that for every part of a pipe some variable is fixed; the pressure, the temp or the volume cannot change. Then it becomes easy calculateable .

[Khyron]

Putting in new structures like Steam engine Mk2 doesn't really add much to the game IMHO. It's ok to do a bit of this in the game, like Assembler I, II III. But it can become tedious if too many buildings are like this.

The introduction of nuclear power is an obvious answer to OPs question and it would integrate well with the existing steam network stuff. Essentially the reactor swaps out the boiler units. If the devs ever do create nuclear power I'd really love to see a LFTR design since it would be much smaller (you don't need a large reactor building for containment since it doesn't operate at high pressure).

If you separate steam from water there are some interesting design opportunities:

• Higher pressure rating components as you move from iron to steel and beyond.
• Collecting waste steam with a condenser and reintroducing it to the boilers as warm water is a point of efficiency gain in exchange for land area and more complicated designs.
• Condensers would be an optional extension to the steam engine so it doesn't get in the way of rushing to steam power.
• Condensers would reduce the need for water pumps to produce so much water.
• Separate information for the player questions: Do I have enough water? (check header tank) Do I have enough steam pressure? (check steam pressure on pipes)
• Reduced need for offshore pumps might let you create manual, burner and electrical variants.
• Pressure valves (see viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3126) let you rely first on elecrical offshore pump, with a burner pump kicking in if the power goes out.

You can play with the size and efficiency of components. A small, iron steam turbine might be appropriate for letting impatient players get to electrical power quickly, but later a larger steal turbine would produce more power per unit of steam. This works so long as the player needs to build a new layout (much like switching from 2x2 smelters to 3x3).

[ssilk]

Yeah, the problem is, that you need to introduce a number of new stuff, to make that possible and that introduces just new complexity to which price? Does that be a good game? I don't know, but think to the early game: I want electricity ASAP, but with these numbers of stuff, it gets really complex.

So, if I would be a developer, I would search for a way to create steam, without that. And voila, we are back at the ground problem, that steam is gas and gas behaves quite differently than liquid. The next logical idea is, that I would try to reduce this difference a bit, but that - again is, what gas differs from liquid. Or the complex formulas might be solvable fast enough, but will an average player understand the consequences?

[Khyron]

Adding complexity for complexity's sake should be avoided. I agree there.

I've watched a lot of LPs and most people don't read the kW ratings of boilers and steam engines the first time they play. They just "put more" until they have enough power. That's normal behavior in other games too. But for those who look, boiler adds X steam while the steam engine subtracts Y steam. You can measure it in cubic meters if you like. Basically the same as current system.

As for steam being a gas, I think that's easier than modeling fluid flowing around. You just use a single pressure rating for elements in the steam network (it reduces complexity to a steam node). Under the hood, each pipe tile adds a small volume to be pressurized, but the player doesn't need to be concerned with that. Pressure = total steam in network / total space in network. Boilers send steam out one side and carry water across the other sides. Just show one arrow for the steam. Then connect steam pipes to the steam engine instead of water pipes. So to get to electrical power asap you place the same number of components. Later you can optimise with a condenser and tanks etc.

[Drizzt321]

After a couple of starts, I personally don't find electricity to take all that long to get started. 15-20 minutes tops, often a good bit less. Although I suppose a small generator (integrated boiler, effectively) directly utilizing water & fuel could be a quick way to start using electricity within just a few minutes in order to very quickly get beyond burner miners & inserters.

I agree that more complexity just to add complexity isn't good. But, a real part of this game is to embrace the complexity so you can become lazy. So adding a few bits like steam pipes/higher pressure pipes (steel vs iron), higher generating steam engines, or the condenser idea from Khyron could be a pretty good thing for those that want to use them. I actually really like the condenser idea, cause I hate the water temp drop at night. Really screws with me sometimes when I end up with too many steam engines on a set of burners.

[ssilk]

I thought a bit of that.

If the separating of steam/gas vs. liquid is a problem, then indeed, a good solution would be to have some extra device which enable to change the aggregate. I think I already made that suggestion, but now more precise. And to add as less new devices as possible I think like so:

Heat exchanger: this device will a little bit declassify real physics. It's function is like an assembly machine, doing things in, coming things out, but much easier.

In this case: you put X water with Y temp and it comes out Z steam with temp 100 and W water with temp 30.

Or: put in X steam with Y temp Z water with temp 15 and comes out Z water with temp 30.

So in one case it works like a steam injector, with side chaining the parts of water, which are "too cold". In the other case it is a condenser, which uses the cold water for condensing.

How it works:

Well, burners, like now, which heat the water to temp 100 or below. Then put it into this. It consumes the water and produces steam (perhaps takes some extra energy?). The steam then can be heated once more to make more energy rich. Then into steam engine. We can feed the colder steam into the condenser. The colder water can come from a lake or from a cooling tower. And then we have a circuit.

Many balancing of course, but the advantage would be then, that the basic calculations are made only in two devices of the same type.