Friday Facts #88 - Combinators

[ssilk]

I must say, when I saw the Combinators working last week in Prague and now, I wouldn't believe it.

Awesome job, Robert (and of course Albert).

...mining outpost, you can put those items on a circuit network and your main base will fill a train with those items and automatically send the train to the outpost.

So the logical next thing to avoid laying that many cables from an outpost to the center is
- wireless connections
- automatic cabling for that long distances or
- hidden connection within the railway...

[jerrycheng]

The output leads back to input. So if you put in 1 red, and because 1 red > 0 green, the red goes out, but also goes back to input so it cycles around and remains even if you turn off the 1 red from input.
Until you put in 1 green. Then 1 red is not > 1 green, so output is turned off.

steps......input....Output
............0R 0G.....0R
SET.......1R 0G......1R
SET.......2R 0G.....1R
...........1R 0G.....1R
...
RESET....1R 1G.....0R
RESET....0R 1G....0R
...........0R 0G....0R
...

The important is, after SET (1R) signal it remembers 1R, and after RESET (1G) it remembers 0R.

Thank you very much.

[Xarph]

Can we get a space-radio type item that can write out and read from a text file?

[jerrycheng]

I have created the truth tables for the twinkling light.

For the left combinator, if K_n<500,output K_n; else output 0. K_n equals to constant input(C_input) plus K_n-1.
C_input...K_n-1...K_n...Output
1...........0.......1.......1
1...........1.......2.......2
1...........2.......3.......3
... ... ... ...
1..........498... 499....499
1..........499... 500..... 0
1...........0.......1.......1
1...........1.......2.......2

For the right combinator, if input<250,output 0; else output 1.

[sillyfly]

These look amazing! Can't wait until 0.12 is out so we can all play with them.

[Drury]

I must say, when I saw the Combinators working last week in Prague and now, I wouldn't believe it.

Awesome job, Robert (and of course Albert).

...mining outpost, you can put those items on a circuit network and your main base will fill a train with those items and automatically send the train to the outpost.

So the logical next thing to avoid laying that many cables from an outpost to the center is
- wireless connections
- automatic cabling for that long distances or
- hidden connection within the railway...

If you have a mining outpost, chances are you're powering it from your base (I always do, it's so much simpler than setting up generators on the spot). You can just use the pylons, easy peasy.

[Boogalo]

Train rails that carry power are a fantastic idea.

Carry power to outposts without running power poles, and make tracks even more deadly to players.

[Gymble]

Yes, this is planned. I should have mentioned this. You will be able to have special signals like "Signal 1", "Signal 2", "Signal 3" ... "Signal Blue", "Signal Green"... "Signal A", "Signal B", "Signal C" ...

Having special signal will be great.
Have you considered providing custom named signals?

It would be so great if we could create signals like "Output 38 copper stock" or "Enough green chip in module area".

Also it could be usefull to be able to propagate a signal over huge area without being forced to wire.

[vedrit]

and make tracks even more deadly to players.

This is a terrible idea until safe ways to cross tracks are made.

[Gully]

This looks great. So many possibilities, I'm excited about the next version.

The video reminded me of Blinkenlights, just showing large arrays of... well, blinking lights

[Peter34]

Very nice and powerful ... we can make some awesomely complex items.

Now if they game just allowed us to have a blueprint set that we could pass between games and an in game binder with pages to store them all in ......

This is indeed something that worries me. Not having to first learn a complex setup, or getting one from the forum here and analyzing until I undertand it, but rather having to re-do such a setup manually in game after game after game. I mean, even if I only play like 6-8 "serious" long games per year (mostly coop MP), it's still a very intimidating chore, having to re-create a complex setup with 30-40 interconnected elements.

So I'm hoping there'll be some long-term storage ability for blueprints, or some kind of pseudo-program structure for these Combinators.

[JamesOFarrell]

Just when i though I had gotten over my Factorio addiction you post this. Bastards!

I can't wait.

[MeduSalem]

But I would suggest the following for the deciders:

The output should be either the input OR a static number of your choice and not restricted to simply "1".

Well, yes you need another multiplier for that, but the gui is complicated already and we wanted to keep things understandable.

I don't think that the GUI for the Deciders is very complicated, in fact it looks much easier than the Smart Inserter GUI because there's only the comparison between two items or item and a static number, as well the output of either the input item and "1".

Wouldn't kill anybody to change the "1"-output-option into a text-field where one can enter any static number one desires.

At least this little Quality of Life improvement would prevent a lot of future threads with people suggesting exactly that, because I know they will be a thing once they realize how ultra complex some of the setups may become otherwise.

Very nice and powerful ... we can make some awesomely complex items.

Now if they game just allowed us to have a blueprint set that we could pass between games and an in game binder with pages to store them all in ......

This is indeed something that worries me. Not having to first learn a complex setup, or getting one from the forum here and analyzing until I undertand it, but rather having to re-do such a setup manually in game after game after game. I mean, even if I only play like 6-8 "serious" long games per year (mostly coop MP), it's still a very intimidating chore, having to re-create a complex setup with 30-40 interconnected elements.

So I'm hoping there'll be some long-term storage ability for blueprints, or some kind of pseudo-program structure for these Combinators.

While it will be for sure a very powerful addition to the game, I also have to say that the practical applications are yet to be determined.

Of course you can create ultra complex stuff, as ridiculous as it gets, but I doubt the usefulness of most contraptions, which is already the case with a lot of creations without a huge wiremess that are otherwise floating around.

I'd say anything that requires more than 5-10 elements to be connected together is already too complex for mass usage and makes me ask myself "Can't this be done in any easier way?".

The point for me is:

Complexity VS Usability VS Maintenance

I hate stuff where either the complexity to do the intial setup is too hardcore, the longterm usability not really given, the maintenance in terms of adding/changing the setup being a complete chore. So eventually I think that the number of applications where above will be in an acceptable equilibrium is limited. So while it offers a lot of amazing possibilities let's not forget all along to stay within a realistic perspective.

That said a Blueprint Archive (a set of blue prints that can be used in any new map you create) would still be fine.

Also I really look forward to the addition/0.12 because we can do probably everything we currently can't do without a huge mess (Steam Backup, Balancing the Oil industry, etc) and more.

[British_Petroleum]

Really cool update. It's like discrete logic. You could save a lot of space and complexity by also introducing a programmable logic/processor unit, where logic functions with memory and time delays could be programmed into one entity with the aid of a nice user interface. Then all those combinators for the rolling sign could be replaced by one entity which would be much easier to debug and for outsiders to understand

[glutamate]

Looks awesome

Hoping that there'll be reason to use these in some scenarios or objective-based maps.

[MF-]

I'd say anything that requires more than 5-10 elements to be connected together is already too complex for mass usage and makes me ask myself "Can't this be done in any easier way?".

I hope that will be possible to do as a mod. For me it seems perfect as it is.

I hate stuff where either the complexity to do the intial setup is too hardcore, the longterm usability not really given, the maintenance in terms of adding/changing the setup being a complete chore. So eventually I think that the number of applications where above will be in an acceptable equilibrium is limited. So while it offers a lot of amazing possibilities let's not forget all along to stay within a realistic perspective.

And love when that happens, since the longterm usability then depends only on how good job I do creating the thing.
So I too hope it all along stays within a realistic perspective.

That said a Blueprint Archive (a set of blue prints that can be used in any new map you create) would still be fine.

That could be a way to go. What would be in such archive? Some kind of "generic solutions"? Will that exist?

because we can do probably everything we currently can't do without a huge mess (Steam Backup, Balancing the Oil industry, etc) and more.

"Steam backup is a huge mess" Why? It all fits under regular wiring pole AFAIK.
Also I very much like the fact that it was possible to do a steam backup setup "as a hack from the inside of the game",
even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it.
Sure, a solution that anyone can understand and remember has to exist, hopefully by the 0.12 update.

[MF-]

It looks truly awesome, I like both the chosen style of the logic machines and the inner works.

Aren't the shadows on the screenshots odd?

My take on wiring mess:
What about some kind of a short "one-wire stand" pole for organizing free-lying CCnet cabling?

[wad67]

I already have plans for a 4 bit adder, working on an ALU.
Anyone else keen to build some computers?

If the builder bots can replicate Combinator setups flawlessly I can see some big computers in the works.
Are lamps visible on the map? If not they should be.
(Terminal output using lamps spanning a few screens (1lamp - 1pixel).

[Memphis86]

WTF ...NICE

i need a German Manuale

[MeduSalem]

That could be a way to go. What would be in such archive? Some kind of "generic solutions"? Will that exist?

I imagine the Data Archive to be something like an "uplink" that comes once you have blueprints available. That uplink gives access to the Archive in which you may store whatever blueprints you like or download whatever blueprints you need to this map instance.

So if you happen to use a build quite often then you make a blueprint of that, upload in the Data Archive access point and then in the next map/game you start you will have it available once you researched the specific technology level. So no need to re-invent the wheel from scratch.

Might eventually be used for sharing blueprints with other players too if someone wants to think about more stuff that could be done with that.

"Steam backup is a huge mess" Why? It all fits under regular wiring pole AFAIK.
Also I very much like the fact that it was possible to do a steam backup setup "as a hack from the inside of the game",
even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it.
Sure, a solution that anyone can understand and remember has to exist, hopefully by the 0.12 update.

You basically answered that question yourself: "As a hack from inside of the game, even though its source code AFAIK didn't plan for it."

I'm for straight forward solutions, so I don't like hacks, workarounds and other ugly contraptions to emulate a lacking feature.