Logistics System Question

[azoundria]

According to the logistic system, I have 93k (~93,000) Iron Plates in storage.

I have a requester chest which is asking for 300 of them.

I have over 500 idle logistic robots.

And yet, nothing is mentioned as being delivered on the chest.

Why could this be?

[slpwnd]

Could you post a link to your save?

[ssilk]

I had a similar problem. I think it has something to do with logic system chests.

Things I found:
1. smart inserter takes only one type of item from a belt (two lines of items in the belt) to put into a storage-chest. When putting a second smart inserter and a second chest at the same end of the belt, the other item was taken.
2. logistic system is not logic. Sometimes robots stand around and only one requester-chest is filled, while another, nearer requester-chest isn't. It seems that it has problems, when many chests of one item are around and when I cable requester-chests. But thats only speculations!

I'll try to make some replay-able examples and post it.

[azoundria]

Okay my save is at http://www.azoundria.com/factorio/StartSmall.rar. You can see the chest nearby is requesting 400 iron plates, and I have 91k in existence. I also have a requester requesting 10 basic assembly machines, which I have 834 available. I have over a thousand idle logistic robots. And none of those orders are being delivered.

[grobyc]

Have similar problem as speakers have over 1k logistic robots, only 25%-50% of them are transport materials, some of requester chests stand empty and wait till there 25%-50% logistic robots done their work.
I was produce another 1k logistic robots and only about 400 robots are working. Have over 300k copper cable with are seen in logistic storage system, order about 300 in some chests and logistics robots are waiting.


Edit: ver. 0.6.1

[drs9999]

Maybe the chests are out of range and the robots will not travel that far?

And btw what is the exact range for the robots?

[kovarex]

Currently 60 robots per second (1 per tick) are assigned to work at max, this might not be enough in some cases.
We will do some further optimisations of this and higher the limit.

[azoundria]

This is a major issue to me, because everything depends on logistic robots now and I had no idea of the limitations of this new technology. Conveyer belts take forever to construct across the map, so I have no practical alternative.

As an immediate solution, it would be good to be able to upgrade that limit in a setting of some kind.

A slightly longer-term solution would be to have logistic robots carry twice as much. That would cut what is required roughly in half. I don't know why robots couldn't be upgraded to carry even a whole stack of items.


Below, I will explain a long-term optimization to virtually eliminate this problem.

I am assuming the way that the system works currently has robots sit idle whenever they finish a task until they are reassigned. I can see how reassignment is a costly operation, since it involves distance comparisons and there are many chests that need to be considered. Obviously, you want to avoid those calculations as much as possible.

Why not get them instead to do the same task they just did again?

Each robot stores the following data:
- Supply chest identifier.
- Requester chest identifier.
- Direction/speed to supply chest.
- Direction/speed to requester chest.
- Boolean mode (supply/request).

When they arrive at a requester chest, and deposit material, they check that the chest is not full. They can then immediately switch mode and the task data is already loaded and ready to go. When they arrive at the supply chest, check to ensure there is still some supply. They can then immediately switch mode and the task data is already loaded and ready to go. There is no need for any operation except one comparison and flipping one boolean.

Inefficiencies arise when new chests are introduced closer, so the system can optimize existing robots when there are no idle robots left to be assigned.

[ssilk]

This is a major issue to me, because everything depends on logistic robots now and I had no idea of the limitations of this new technology. Conveyer belts take forever to construct across the map, so I have no practical alternative.

Well, belts are the only alternative.
Logistic robots are not transport robots! Transport: belt or train, logistic: logistic bots.

The reason is just pure physics: while a belt doesn't need to return (it returns on the downside) and the train hits all with its huge amount and speed, the logistic robot needs to return and cannot load much.

The consequence is: They are not thought for long distances or huge amount of stuff. You can observe that clearly, when you watch them: the chance, that a robot returns with something carrying is much higher in a small area, than far away. Or in other words: the chance, that a logistic robot drives without freight becomes near 50%, the longer the way is, that he needs to fly.

So belts are very useful in transporting a constant flow over large areas. Trains are useful to transport enourmous masses over extreme distances, but logistic bots are thought to transport stuff more or less inside a radar-area (with many exceptions!) to keep the interlooping of belts and inserters etc. low.

As an immediate solution, it would be good to be able to upgrade that limit in a setting of some kind.

I use them a lot and even with ultimate large factories I didn't come to those limits.

A slightly longer-term solution would be to have logistic robots carry twice as much. That would cut what is required roughly in half. I don't know why robots couldn't be upgraded to carry even a whole stack of items.

Because it is too heavy? why are up to 4 items (or is it more?) not enough, what the hell are you doing?
ok, seriously: Not that I'm against it, but I fear, that this changes the whole gameplay into a ordinary build-up game. Factorio has this special element, where form is function. I don't know much games, which have that, and it would be a big pity to lose that!

Another reason is, that - as far as I know - logistic robots are planned to use some energy and needs to be loaded, because they are currently to mighty. See this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =917#p7629

Btw: Do you know, that you can use the car to built belts really fast?

Each robot stores the following data:
- Supply chest identifier.
- Requester chest identifier.
- Direction/speed to supply chest.
- Direction/speed to requester chest.
- Boolean mode (supply/request).

When they arrive at a requester chest, and deposit material, they check that the chest is not full. They can then immediately switch mode and the task data is already loaded and ready to go. When they arrive at the supply chest, check to ensure there is still some supply. They can then immediately switch mode and the task data is already loaded and ready to go. There is no need for any operation except one comparison and flipping one boolean.

Inefficiencies arise when new chests are introduced closer, so the system can optimize existing robots when there are no idle robots left to be assigned.

I think this is a nice idea, but I think the idea of the charger points is much more useful, because this will bring again in the concept of form is function, because depending on where you place the charging poles and the chests, they will have different functions. This could be a quite interesting new task.

[grobyc]

Currently 60 robots per second (1 per tick) are assigned to work at max, this might not be enough in some cases.
We will do some further optimisations of this and higher the limit.

Is this value was changed or remain the same?

[kovarex]

The limit will be removed in 0.7.1

[grobyc]

It's great to hear this. Two from three biggest old inconvenience will be removed, biggest in my opinion with make Factorio less playful.
1st (removed with 0.7.0) inconvenience was high capacity of save game. Old save gave from version could have for example 320 MB and more, now after "resave" it's only 30,5MB.
2nd (will be remove with 0.7.1) inconvenience is related with this subject.
Truly great optimization of Factorio. Now I can create factory from my imagination.

Still there is 3rd inconvenience with was discussed there: The sense of the provider chest.
In short: there is only 2 from 3 useful chests and not all items I want store in storage chests (want storage basic materials and half-product [coal, iron ore, electronic circuts] not end-product with I use only for character logistic slots [mining drills, boiler, steel-furnace].

3rd block me to build factory with I only can image for now. Two from three are solved and I'm very happy on it and when I'm looking on it I see 3rd is only matter of time.
Can't wait for ver. 0.7.1.

[kovarex]

Old save gave from version could have for example 320 MB and more, now after "resave" it's only 30,5MB.

I don't know about any big changes that could reduce the save size, maybe it is just because the replay was disabled as you moved from version to version?

[grobyc]

If I good remember I always play without replay. If I'm correct for replay respond replay.dat file in save folder with not exist in this 320 MB save folder. 320 MB it's size of level.dat file. I was check on all my big maps and after save it in 0.7.0 size significantly decreased. If it was unintended I sure you this is big optimization when you have big factory and you want save it and play with autosave on.

[Dakkanor]

The limit will be removed in 0.7.1

YAY

i am looking forward to a transmission tower which defines the operational area of the robots, i see transmission towers, which also act as a housing unit for robots with recharging and repair, and relays which boost the range of the robots which could also act as recharging stations.