Nuclear power OP

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.

Is nuclear power good as is or overpowered?

Nuclear power is fine.
30
83%
Nuclear power is overpowered.
2
6%
Nuclear power is broken as hell.
4
11%
 
Total votes: 36

leadraven
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by leadraven » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:54 am

nafira wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:45 pm
The main thing about nuclear is that you waste a lot of energy into thin air.
Agree, uranium gives not a fixed amount of power, but more like nearly infinite power for limited time. And this time is huge compared to infrastructure required. That's what I don't like. It gives too much energy for too little effort.
Zavian wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:51 am
You don't need to waste any energy. You can store the heat excess energy as heat in the heat-pipe and reactors, and as steam in tanks. When the steam in the tanks starts dropping you can add a new fuel cell.
Ooooh, that's a nice trick! To control fuel flow and let reactors to cool down...

JimBarracus
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by JimBarracus » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:40 pm

nafira wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:45 pm
The main thing about nuclear is that you waste a lot of energy into thin air.
not when you control it with logic circuits.
use tanks to store unused steam
use heatpipes to store excess heat
use akkus and a sr latch to toggle the nuclear power

letting it run 24/7 is very inneficient
small changes can improve it a lot

Stakhanov
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:49 pm

Solar power has the benefit of not requiring any maintenance at all , so in the long run nuclear power is inferior if you have arbitrary space available. Nuclear power needs to be rewarding as it's the highest energy tech , having the greatest spatial power density is a good attribute for it. It's not as cheap as you think - besides the massive setup costs of reactors , heat pipes , exchangers , steam turbines and centrifuges , there's also uranium outposts to build , defend and connect with railway , and that process cannot be fully automated.

I agree that the kovarex process may be a bit too good , maybe the reaction could require some light oil-based coolant ? Something to add to the mostly irrelevant u-238 cost. There aren't many ways to nerf it that make sense , it's already an expensive tech that unlocks a time-intensive process.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by nafira » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:33 pm

JimBarracus wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:40 pm
nafira wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:45 pm
The main thing about nuclear is that you waste a lot of energy into thin air.
not when you control it with logic circuits.
use tanks to store unused steam
use heatpipes to store excess heat
use akkus and a sr latch to toggle the nuclear power

letting it run 24/7 is very inneficient
small changes can improve it a lot
First : I agree with leadraven, letting reactors cooldown is not the solution for your main central.

Then :
I have 2 centrals of 8 cores each. One is my main source of energy, the other is launched for emergency only by reading global electricity storage (I builded a huge amount of accumulators to have time to heat up the reactors).
This central is launched when accu are at less than 70% capacity, which gives me a lot of time to prevent any trouble. Also have a decent amount of steam is I have uranium problem.
Here is my "logic cicuits"

Using tanks is great, thanks, I think your the first to invent the idea ;)
More seriously, if you are to store every steam you produce, it's going to be a mess, as said before, you need to shut down reactors to do so, which is still not the solution.

Heatpipes ! Yeah, at 1GW consumption it's very useful ! and the footprint isn't massive at all.

Last but not least : as said before you don't cool down your main reactors, only your backup generator. It's like shutting down a server and reactivating it (taking time) when used. No, you let it on idle state. That's basics.
You can shutdown a part of a cluster of servers in load-balancing, but not shutting all down.

Solution provided :
The only "energy management" you can do is not having a 40 cores central just to prevent spikes. It's useless, and then the control of it is a nightmare.
You'd better split it into 5 or 4 different centrals, sharing the same tank backup to prevent energy problems and fast recovery time (even no need for reactivating other centrals), and activated only at certain level of energy shortage.

This is a good management. You waste a bit of energy, but your backup is here and controlled by accu and steam storage (a bit, no need to store it all)

This way you lose a bit of steam on your first central (which is nothing), but not putting you factory in danger and not building a nightmare of logic to be 100% efficient.
And another plus : I use a different electrical circuit with solars and accu to power pumps, arms, and bots, so it can't get affected by energy shortage


PS :
use sentences
use punctuation
don't just throw "do it" lines

It's very annoying to read these kind of "let me teach you poor ignorant" posts.

bobucles
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by bobucles » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:35 pm

The main thing about nuclear is that you waste a lot of energy into thin air.
Take a look into the some smart reactor blueprints. It is possible to build a reactor that uses only the fuel it needs with circuits. The trick is to measure steam storage, since that's the only part of the reactor you can plug into.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Jeeto » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:44 pm

In 0.17 map generation Uranium will spawn farther from starting area so you won't be able to start mining it and stockpiling enough for Kovarex enrichment so early on. And oil patches will be farther out as well so you won't get sulfuric acid to mine the uranium until later in the game too. I think this will get rid of some of the overpoweredness of nuclear cause you'll need trains and circuit network to effectively mine, refine, and enrich the uranium (not to mention Nuclear + Kovarex research is very costly)

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by nafira » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:52 pm

Jeeto wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:44 pm
In 0.17 map generation Uranium will spawn farther from starting area so you won't be able to start mining it and stockpiling enough for Kovarex enrichment so early on. And oil patches will be farther out as well so you won't get sulfuric acid to mine the uranium until later in the game too. I think this will get rid of some of the overpoweredness of nuclear cause you'll need trains and circuit network to effectively mine, refine, and enrich the uranium (not to mention Nuclear + Kovarex research is very costly)
Yes, but it's just a matter of time. We're talking about long term balancing, not starting.

There's simple ways (I said it in another topic) to reduce nuclear OP'ness :
  • only recover iron plates from old cells
  • a Kovarex run "produce" 80GJ every 50s for around 300kJ ==> this is madness, because it's nearly free
    • change to 10 min and double energy consumption
    • add new item like rocket fuel to power centrifuges instead of electricity or Steel bar or more U-238 needed
Kovarex is OP, not nuclear itself.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Nasabot » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Nuclear power is decent for mid and lategame, but for the ultimate lategame, solar power is still the best because it has a "divide by 0 dynamic" in it.

Uranium feels overabundant, I agree that the kovarex enrichment recipe should cost more dark green uranium.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by bobingabout » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:37 am

I think the only thing OP about nuclear power is the Korvarex process.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.

theolderbeholder
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by theolderbeholder » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:42 pm

Only until all your U235 goes into nukes.

Hannu
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Hannu » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:39 am

theolderbeholder wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:42 pm
Only until all your U235 goes into nukes.
You must have quite interesting biter expansion settings, if you can use all nukes which simple building row of few centrifuges can produce. You need couple of hundreds to clear reasonable area for megabase, but Kovarex produces easily hundreds of thousands of U-235. I think it has thought to be an ultimate endgame solution for all needs without huge ups-hungry production plants. Maybe there could be some development stages. Like basic Kovarex, which would cost like current but take 10 times more time to produce a cycle. And super Kovarex, which would cost space science too and produce like current process for megalomanic megabase builders.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Jeeto » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:55 pm

theolderbeholder wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:42 pm
Only until all your U235 goes into nukes.
Or thousands of rounds of Uranium Ammo, cause not only do you have practically limitless electricity from uranium 238, but with u235 you can defend the base at 0 watts of electricity cause gun turrets are magic

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by theolderbeholder » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:37 pm

Hannu wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:39 am
theolderbeholder wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:42 pm
Only until all your U235 goes into nukes.
You must have quite interesting biter expansion settings, if you can use all nukes which simple building row of few centrifuges can produce.
Or I like to blow things up. Your call. :D

But quite a lot of my 238 (which I might turn into 235 for nukes) goes indeed into Uranium Ammo. `Cause, I like to shoot at things, too. And I rarely use lasers until we can mount them onto sharksfish.

Hannu
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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by Hannu » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:49 am

theolderbeholder wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:37 pm
Or I like to blow things up. Your call. :D
You must run quite far away to find anything to destroy after using couple of full inventories of atomic bombs.
Maybe you use nukes instead of deconstructing planner.
But quite a lot of my 238 (which I might turn into 235 for nukes) goes indeed into Uranium Ammo.
I have used only gun turrets in my last games and found that if I have normal uranium ore patch with couple of millions of ore it lasts hundreds of hours for uranium ammo, atomic bombs and nuclear powerplants. I need just few tens of miners, short row of centrifuges and nothing fancy or special. I even do not use any control logic but let reactors run at full power all the time. It is hard to believe severe lack of uranium or nuclear products based on that experience. Of course you can make troubles with poor settings, if you want.

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:44 am

This sounds like there's just too much uranium on the map itself...

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Re: Nuclear power OP

Post by nafira » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm

I have a map with normal setting, and I found 9.3M uranium patch.
Several 500k+ and 1 or 2 2M+ patches not far.

With my +100production technology and modules so 130% more, I have around 40M uranium to get. And I already used a good 2M at least on this map.

So to be poor on uranium, you must have set map setting to high for other resources, preventing the apparition of uranium patches.

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