make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.
Post Reply
Tekky
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 779
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:53 am

make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by Tekky » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:18 pm

TL;DR
Instead of allowing the player to hand-craft while moving, the player should have to stand still in order to hand-craft.

What ?
Currently, it is possible for the player to perform hand-crafting while moving. I am suggesting that the player should have to stand still for several seconds in order to unpack his hand-crafting equipment and to remain standing still for the actual hand-crafting. As soon as the player moves, he stops hand-crafting and will only continue hand-crafting after he has been standing still for long enough to unpack his hand-crafting equipment again. So that the player can better understand what is going on, an animation should play when he is unpacking his hand-crafting equipment and a different animation should play when he is actually performing hand-crafting.

Why ?
Currently, if the player urgently needs an item to be hand-crafted, he must cancel his entire crafting queue in order to craft that urgently needed item. For this reason, it has been suggested many times that it should be possible for the player to be able to insert items to the start of the hand-crafting queue. For example, this has been suggested in the following suggestion threads:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62338 Double ended crafting queue
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49361 Rearrange hand craft queue - QOL
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41594 Ctrl+click to add to front of craft queue

This suggestion has been declined by the Factorio developers. In this post, Factorio developer Twinsen states that the hand-crafting interface is supposed to be annoying, because they don't want to make hand-crafting too powerful. They want people to automate instead.

I agree with the Factorio developers that hand-crafting should not be made too powerful, because the goal of the game is automation. However, discouraging hand-crafting by deliberately having an annoying inflexible interface does not seem the right thing to do. In my opinion, there are better ways to discourage hand-crafting, for example by requiring that the user is stationary in order to hand-craft.

In other words, I fully agree with Twinsen that hand-crafting should be annoying, because the goal of the game is automation. I just disagree with Twinsen about how hand-crafting should be annoying. Instead of making the interface annoying, the game should make hand-crafting annoying in a way that fits better with the game. I believe that this is what my suggestion accomplishes.

If my suggestion were implemented, then hand-crafting will be sufficiently nerfed, so that there would no longer be any reason not to implement the priority hand-crafting suggestion mentioned above.

Jap2.0
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1616
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 am

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:37 am

So... basically, you're making the early game even more tedious and encouraging afking?

I'd also like to point out that setting down an assembler to craft something, going to do something else, and then coming back to pick up the product and assembler because you couldn't hand-craft your first whatever while playing the game isn't exactly the kind of automation we're going for here.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

User avatar
WeirdConstructor
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:31 am

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by WeirdConstructor » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:57 am

Thats a great idea. And you can mitigate the tediousness by giving the player one or two assemblers for free at the beginning. That would instantly make it obvious how valuable the automation is.

Tekky
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 779
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:53 am

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by Tekky » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:45 am

After hearing your counter-arguments, I am starting to think that it may be best to get rid of hand-crafting altogether.

One thing that I never liked about hand-crafting is that it can be used as an exploit to increase your carrying capacity beyond your inventory limit, by queuing many items and cancelling them later. Getting rid of hand-crafting would solve this problem.

However, I do like being forced to hand-craft in the early game. It gives you a nice feeling of progression to start off with nothing else but a pickaxe and hand-crafting equipment and end up with a big automated factory.

Also, having the option to hand-craft as a fallback is important to prevent deadlock situations. If the player were unable to hand-craft and given an assembler at the start of the game as compensation, then the player would be deadlocked if this assembler somehow got destroyed before he could manufacture more.

Jap2.0 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:37 am
I'd also like to point out that setting down an assembler to craft something, going to do something else, and then coming back to pick up the product and assembler because you couldn't hand-craft your first whatever while playing the game isn't exactly the kind of automation we're going for here.
Actually, maybe it is.

When using your pickaxe to mine ore in the very early game, you are also forced to stand still. It makes sense that the same should be true for hand-crafting.

In this post, Factorio developer Twinsen stated that hand-crafting should be annoying, so that the player gets the feeling that there must be a better way to do things (which would be automation). If the player discovers that it is easier to place an assembler, give it some work to do and return later, then that would be the first step toward automation.

That way, hand-crafting would only be meaningful in the following situations:
  • To craft a small number of items where it would not be worth it to set up an assembler to do the job.
  • To prevent the deadlock situations described above.
I have the feeling that this solution may fit best with the spirit of Factorio.

WeirdConstructor wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:57 am
And you can mitigate the tediousness by giving the player one or two assemblers for free at the beginning.
I am not sure if the player should be given an assembler for free right at the beginning. But I agree that assemblers should at least be craftable right from the beginning and should not have to be researched first.

If the player is given a burner miner and smelter for free at the beginning, then it does make sense that the player is also given an assembler for free. However, one could argue that forcing the player to craft all of these items himself and forcing him to gathering the resources for these items using his pickaxe would give the player more of a feeling of progression.

SupplyDepoo
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by SupplyDepoo » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Is this a sarcasm thread?

This is the worst suggestion I've come across. I'd much rather have the ability to move while crafting than the ability to prepend the queue (not that they're mutually exclusive).

The time it takes and the linearity of handcrafting is enough of a penalty.

Being able to carry more items by handcrafting is a clever use of game mechanics that is not at all common, and has its own downsides.

This idea just limits variation in play style for nothing in return.

Tekky
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 779
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:53 am

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by Tekky » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:58 pm

SupplyDepoo wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:21 pm
The time it takes and the linearity of handcrafting is enough of a penalty.
Yes, that is a very good argument and I would certainly find it acceptable if the Factorio developers reverted their decision that handcrafting should be annoying and would instead improve the crafting interface to make it more flexible.

However, the current situation is that the Factorio developers have decided that they want to keep the annoying inflexible crafting interface because they don't want to make handcrafting too attractive. Therefore, with my suggestion, I am offering an alternative way to make handcrafting less attractive.

I guess it all comes down to the following question:

Do we want players to be walking assembly machines?

Factorio developer Twinsen explicitly answered that question with a "no" in his post that I mentioned above, arguing that the player should be encouraged to automate instead. However, your argument that the linearity of handcrafting is a sufficient limitation is also a good argument. Therefore, I would say that there are good arguments for answering this question either way.

The main problem I see is that there has never been a clear decision on how to answer this question. Currently, players are allowed to be walking assembly machines, but the Factorio developers are declining all further QOL improvements to the crafting interface out of fear that this would make handcrafting too attractive.

Therefore, I think it would be best if a clear decision was made that either
  1. Players are walking assembly machines and can use a flexible crafting interface to give priority to individual crafting jobs.
  2. Players are not walking assembly machines and therefore should have strong restrictions on handcrafting, for example by being required to remain stationary in order to handcraft.
Whatever decision the Factorio developers and/or community makes, I will support it, but I urge that a clear decision should be made.

SupplyDepoo
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by SupplyDepoo » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:12 pm

I think you're making a false a dichotomy. The current system is basic, but does the job quite well (compare with Minecraft for example), with some obvious drawbacks. We don't have to go toward either extreme. Leave it as it is, or even improve it. Just don't punish the player for having to handcraft a few things in the early- and mid-game by having to stop and wait in boredom just to make a point about automation.

posila
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 2644
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: make hand-crafting only possible when stationary

Post by posila » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:35 pm

Tekky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:58 pm
Players are walking assembly machines and can use a flexible crafting interface to give priority to individual crafting jobs.
How does "being walking assembling machine" imply "flexible crafting interface"? Assembling machines have even less flexible crafting interface than player does.

Also Twinsen said:
Twinsen wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 5:28 pm
Adding queue to front will only aggravate this problem. By making it annoying the way it is now, it forces new players to think "if only there was a way to do this easier...".
"Making it annoying" refers to "queue to front" operation, not entire crafting interface.

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”