Version 0.16.51

Information about releases and roadmap.

Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby meganothing » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:24 pm

Trblz wrote:
Loewchen wrote:Right, as you (Factorio) are not competing in the battery market, or advertising in such way that it might cause confusion with customers, you are not infringing in the Duracell TM. Neither is Factorio using the battery icon or the iconic energizer bunny in any way in advertisement or commercial products. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_infringement for more detials.


You posted the right link, but it seems you just forgot to read a little further there:
Code: Select all
If the respective marks and products or services are entirely dissimilar, trademark infringement may still be established if the registered mark is well known pursuant to the Paris Convention. In the United States, a cause of action for use of a mark for such dissimilar services is called trademark dilution.


So yes, duracell would in all likelihood win a court case.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby mrvn » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:28 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Light wrote:Image

Looks less like an alkaline battery and more like a module drinking mug.

oh shit, now it means I have to release a patch updating my own icons to match.


Can you tint the battery casing or something?
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby bobingabout » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:13 am

mrvn wrote:
bobingabout wrote:
Light wrote:Image

Looks less like an alkaline battery and more like a module drinking mug.

oh shit, now it means I have to release a patch updating my own icons to match.


Can you tint the battery casing or something?

Probably
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Gergely » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 am

bobingabout wrote:
mrvn wrote:
bobingabout wrote:
Light wrote:Image

Looks less like an alkaline battery and more like a module drinking mug.

oh shit, now it means I have to release a patch updating my own icons to match.


Can you tint the battery casing or something?

Probably

It's hue shifting I believe. You either rotate all hues by a certain degree, or set all hues to a certain degree.

I made a topic on the change in battery design here: 61213#p369609 You can see an example to hue shifted batteries.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby bobingabout » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 am

Gergely wrote:
bobingabout wrote:
mrvn wrote:
bobingabout wrote:
Light wrote:Image

Looks less like an alkaline battery and more like a module drinking mug.

oh shit, now it means I have to release a patch updating my own icons to match.


Can you tint the battery casing or something?

Probably

It's hue shifting I believe. You either rotate all hues by a certain degree, or set all hues to a certain degree.

I made a topic on the change in battery design here: 61213#p369609 You can see an example to hue shifted batteries.

Can also do a saturation shift to pull it to brown, or grey.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Oktokolo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:07 pm

My try on a battery replacement icon: Clean Battery Icon
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Gergely » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:22 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:Grrrrrrr, hate the new look. I guess I'll have to install a mod now to get batteries to look normal again?
NOT a good change! :cry:

Here.

I agree... WHY DID THEY HAVE TO DO THIS?! :x

It's so damn hard to understand all this weird reasoning for such a stupid change.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Sander_Bouwhuis » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:01 pm

Gergely wrote:
Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:Grrrrrrr, hate the new look. I guess I'll have to install a mod now to get batteries to look normal again?
NOT a good change! :cry:

Here.

I agree... WHY DID THEY HAVE TO DO THIS?! :x

It's so damn hard to understand all this weird reasoning for such a stupid change.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Thanks a bunch! My piece of mind is restored.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby thedarkbunny » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:13 pm

Gergely wrote:It's so damn hard to understand all this weird reasoning for such a stupid change.


Leaving aside the laws involved and whether or not they're stupid laws, there are only a few ways this could have gone:

  1. Wube makes the change immediately: We get a silly-looking battery, at least until someone on the art team makes a better one.
  2. Wube doesn't change it, Duracell backs down: Nothing changes.
  3. Wube doesn't change it, Duracell sues, Duracell loses: End result, no change to the game but a lot of time and money wasted on lawyers. That's time and money that they won't be spending on the game.
  4. Wube doesn't change it, Duracell sues, Duracell wins: We get a silly-looking battery, much time and money is lost to lawyers, and Wube probably takes an extra penalty for failing to fix it at the start.

Given those odds, probably cheaper just to change the battery design and be done with it. Which they did.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Hannu » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:26 pm

thedarkbunny wrote:Given those odds, probably cheaper just to change the battery design and be done with it. Which they did.


Yes, but change in color and maybe in width of colored ring would have been enough to avoid trademark problems. New model is childish and difficult to detect as a battery. Especially in modded games where can be hundreds of items including several types of batteries.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby thedarkbunny » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:52 pm

Hannu wrote:Yes, but change in color and maybe in width of colored ring would have been enough to avoid trademark problems. New model is childish and difficult to detect as a battery. Especially in modded games where can be hundreds of items including several types of batteries.


Agreed. Here's hoping they roll a better battery icon into 0.17.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby mrvn » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:04 pm

Was it confirmed that Duracel objected to the batteries?

If so I really like the suggestion of asking one of the competitors to use their battery look. If Duracel objects to free advertising and plays silly games with trademarks then lets support the competition.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Sander_Bouwhuis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:07 pm

mrvn wrote:Was it confirmed that Duracel objected to the batteries?

If so I really like the suggestion of asking one of the competitors to use their battery look. If Duracel objects to free advertising and plays silly games with trademarks then lets support the competition.

That is actually a really good idea! That should give the marketing fellows pause.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Jap2.0 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:43 pm

mrvn wrote:Was it confirmed that Duracel objected to the batteries?

If so I really like the suggestion of asking one of the competitors to use their battery look. If Duracel objects to free advertising and plays silly games with trademarks then lets support the competition.

Yeah, that's been confirmed.
I have mixed feelings about that. Duracell wasn't really being silly, if they don't pursue trademark dilution, they could lose their trademark, which would be a major loss for them. The only way to get around that is by calling it a Duracell battery, which I don't think any of us want that. Using another company's battery design seems kind of childish, and they would also have to pursue trademark, and might also be able to claim that the trademark infringement/dilution was intentional after the Duracell incident.
Last edited by Jap2.0 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Koub » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:15 pm

Copyright and Trademark are two totally different things. In this case, it's a trademark issue. If anybody else than Duracell uses their looks and visual identity, then they would eventually loose the right claiming that black body copper head battery = Duracell (which would be bad for them because other battery companies would be allowed to build duracell clones without infringing any trademark.
As long as Duracell keeps the control, you're guaranteed, when boying a black body+copper head battery, you get a Duracell.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Gergely » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:39 pm

Why would they lose the trademark (for real batteries) if games use the design? That's the hard-to-understand part. Yeah, sure games make more people believe that the design is nothing specific to Duracell, but that does not mean somebody will eventually be able to produce real clones just because they are in games. I never thought law takes games that seriously.

And they are in a lot of games already, so what makes Factorio different? Why can't Factorio use the same design that is used by many games?
Duracell batteries suck anyway. They are not rechargeable unlike Factorio (past) batteries, so that's also a difference.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby thedarkbunny » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:58 pm

Gergely wrote:Why would they lose the trademark (for real batteries) if games use the design? That's the hard-to-understand part. Yeah, sure games make more people believe that the design is nothing specific to Duracell, but that does not mean somebody will eventually be able to produce real clones just because they are in games. I never thought law takes games that seriously.


Factorio alone isn't going to lose them the trademark, but every piece of media that uses a "generic" copper-and-black battery makes it that much harder for Duracell to keep it. If the trademark is contested, the courts will ask two questions:
  • Would an average person look at a copper-and-black battery and think "this is a Duracell battery?"
  • Did you try to stop people from using your trademark?
If the answer to either one is no, then Duracell doesn't own the trademark anymore. So there's some incentive to be an a-hole about this kind of thing.

Gergely wrote:And they are in a lot of games already, so what makes Factorio different? Why can't Factorio use the same design that is used by many games?

Same reason a lot of other games can use a white medkit with a Red Cross logo on it, but Prison Architect had to change theirs: Factorio got popular enough that someone noticed.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Omnifarious » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:11 am

Gergely wrote:Why would they lose the trademark (for real batteries) if games use the design? That's the hard-to-understand part. Yeah, sure games make more people believe that the design is nothing specific to Duracell, but that does not mean somebody will eventually be able to produce real clones just because they are in games. I never thought law takes games that seriously.


The total value of the games industry is well on its way to eclipsing movies, and people take those very seriously.

No amount of whining and saying "But that makes no sense." will change the way the law works. A few people in this conversation are fairly familiar with trademark law. And to a one they all say the same thing. So, either your random complaining is correct, or a bunch of people familiar with the law are correct. I'll take the people who know the law.

Rather than making random contentless uninformed complaint posts on here, you could try doing some independent research yourself on trademark law. You might want to look up the "Kleenex" case. They lost their trademark in basically this way. IP law in general is a very complex area of law with lots of nooks and crannies to it.
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby mrvn » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:46 am

Jap2.0 wrote:
mrvn wrote:Was it confirmed that Duracel objected to the batteries?

If so I really like the suggestion of asking one of the competitors to use their battery look. If Duracel objects to free advertising and plays silly games with trademarks then lets support the competition.

Yeah, that's been confirmed.
I have mixed feelings about that. Duracell wasn't really being silly, if they don't pursue trademark dilution, they could lose their trademark, which would be a major loss for them. The only way to get around that is by calling it a Duracell battery, which I don't think any of us want that. Using another company's battery design seems kind of childish, and they would also have to pursue trademark, and might also be able to claim that the trademark infringement/dilution was intentional after the Duracell incident.


The idea was to approach another company and ask them for permission to use theirs. Legally call it product placement. Now it's advertising. Surely that can't dilute the trademark.

thedarkbunny wrote:* Would an average person look at a copper-and-black battery and think "this is a Duracell battery?"
* Did you try to stop people from using your trademark?


No, we made a deal with them to place our product in their game to make the average person even more aware. :)
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Re: Version 0.16.51

Postby Gergely » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:02 am

mrvn wrote:The idea was to approach another company and ask them for permission to use theirs. Legally call it product placement. Now it's advertising. Surely that can't dilute the trademark.

thedarkbunny wrote:* Would an average person look at a copper-and-black battery and think "this is a Duracell battery?"
* Did you try to stop people from using your trademark?


No, we made a deal with them to place our product in their game to make the average person even more aware. :)

The batteries in Factorio would be product placement ONLY if they were labeled "Duracell" battery. That means what Factorio and many other games did was not product placement, because they give no credit to Duracell for owning this design. IF someone does not know Duracell, they can't find out about their existence from any of those games.

But come on. Naming all of the batteries "Duracell battery" in Factorio makes no sense because 1: They are not being manufactured by Duracell 2: They are rechargeable unlike Duracell. This is Factorio, not the real world.

Clearly, if those questions are serious (which I'm finally convinced they are) there is a motive for Duracell to attack Factorio for using the design, and for Factorio to back down from a fight that costs them time and money. Trademarks exist to prevent copying and stealing of popularity. That's reasonable. It would be confusing to see copper-black design on batteries other than Duracell's in real life for sure. (Not that I would be deceived.)

Here is my next question: Why would Factorio, or any game really, have an effect on what people think of real batteries? Virtual is not real. Everyone knows that.
(Okay, stop answering these... because we are going off-topic into the depths of recursive questioning.)
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