Factorio Forums

TL;DR

Make lasers continuous beam and change laser shooting speed to laser power output and make it infinite, and change laser damage to laser collamination and make it limited, also adjust other things about how lasers work to fit.

What ?

I remember reading in FFF #228 that continuous beam lasers were being considered for Factorio 0.17. The current 'pew pew pew' lasers aren't very realistic, especially since the shots have a discernible velocity. Continuous beam lasers would look a lot more realistic and I think fit Factorio's general aesthetic better.

But, 'laser shooting speed' makes no sense for a continuous beam device.

I suggest changing 'laser damage' to 'laser power output' and have it actually affect how much power lasers consume when firing. It also makes sense to have this be an infinite research. You could then change 'laser shooting speed' to 'laser collamination' referring to how tightly focused the beam is. This could then affect how much damage resistance affected the damage done by the laser. It also makes sense for this research to be limited, there is only so much damage a laser can do.

I think collamination should affect how much physical damage resistance affects lasers. Armor piercing bullets focus more of their punch on a smaller surface area to break through armor. Laser collamination is the laser equivalent.

Alternatively, 'laser shooting speed' could become 'laser targeting speed' and cause the laser to swing around to its target more quickly or slowly.

Why ?

First, pew pew lasers are just not realistic at all. Having 'lasers' work that way is something Buck Rogers and Star Wars did because it made for better cinema then instantaneous beams of invisible radiation you couldn't see. Of course, in Factorio, there is an atmosphere for the laser to interact with, and so a high-power laser would be able to be seen as a beam.

Secondly, it would distinguish lasers from guns in more ways than just whether or not they needed ammunition. And it would make the two kinds of laser improvement research somewhat distinct in their affect on gameplay from the two guns of gun damage research. So I think it would make Factorio a more interesting game by changing the kinds of tradeoffs people make for different weapon types.

For example, if you've waited until late game, increasing collamination might be better than increasing power output for dealing effectively with behemoth biters and their armor. Even earlier in the game, lasers might not be such a great choice for clearing a nest with big worms if you didn't have a few levels of collamination research. On the other hand, you might not be able to deal with the higher hitpoint, but still armor light large biters without damage research.

This is also why I think collamination is a better kind of research than targetting speed. Because collamination has tradeoffs relating to the kinds of enemies you're trying to deal with. All the enemies in Factorio move at about the same speed. And larger enemies would be quicker to hit with poor targetting anyway. So I don't think that fits as well.

I dare you search internet for continuous beam lasers. These devices can almost never be used as a weapon.
Any type of a laser based weapon fires short beam burst and charges after. This is mostly based of technology underlying laser as a device - a single frequency light beam resonance within a crystal. The physics of the process can only let you make short bursts of a beam. Though the burst is actially super short, actual "continuous beam lasers" implement a continuous series or short bursts.

Ofc all this is true for "true" lasers as opposed to simple focused light beam projectors using wide specter light such as diodes. But later ones can hardly be used as a weapon as their beam dissipation is really high so they can't actually work effectively at a distance.

Another thing about continuous beam lasers is that they should aim perfectly into the same spot for quite some time to become effective which is still a problem when trying to apply the technology in weaponry.

So personally I do find current Klonan's mod Laser beam turrets the best implementation of laser turrets from both visual perspective and reality of process.

On the one hand lasers often pulse at such a high repetition that they appear continuous. With 60+ pulses per second there's no difference to continuous. There is a pulse every tick.

On the other hand just rename laser turrets to plasma turrets. Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly. Lasers would only be visible indirectly when they make air molecules glow as they pass through or light up dust in the air.

mrvn wrote:Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense.

I wouldn't say that a thing that doesn't really exist in real life makes "more sense" then another also fictional weapon (laser turrets)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser#As_weapons

But I agree, how the laser turrets work right now in factorio, doesn't make any sense...

PacifyerGrey wrote:I dare you search internet for continuous beam lasers. These devices can almost never be used as a weapon.
Any type of a laser based weapon fires short beam burst and charges after. This is mostly based of technology underlying laser as a device - a single frequency light beam resonance within a crystal. The physics of the process can only let you make short bursts of a beam. Though the burst is actially super short, actual "continuous beam lasers" implement a continuous series or short bursts.

I was thinking about this. Laser eye surgery (and the national ignition facility if I'm not mistaken) rely on shortening laser pulse width to drastically increase the wattage by packing more into a single pulse. That could be the research item to use instead of collamination, and it would also make sense and have a similar effect (you could even think of it as collamination in time instead of in space). It would also seem to have a logical endpoint. I don't think you could get a pulse any shorter than the wavelength of the light you're using.

As someone else pointed out, when your pulses are frequent enough, the beam is going to look continuous regardless. And even if they aren't, you will see flickering, not some weird short red line moving at a discernable velocity towards its target. To get that with a laser, you'd have to create some sort of moving interference fringe effect.

mrvn wrote:On the other hand just rename laser turrets to plasma turrets. Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly. Lasers would only be visible indirectly when they make air molecules glow as they pass through or light up dust in the air.

If you talk about realism, plasma bullets can not be stable. "Plasma guns" are purely fictive weapons.

As someone mentioned most of real world's high energy lasers work in pulsed mode. Stimulated emission benefits of huge field strengths which are impossible to maintain continuously. You can easily get power of large nuclear power plant (1 GW) through a volume of cubic millimeter in laboratory. For example one laser with which I have worked (unfortunately very nerdy spectroscopic research instead of secret doomsday weapons) gives 10 pulses per second at 1 J pulse energy and 10 ps duration (length of the pulse is 3 mm, who says that short line shaped laser pulses are not realistic, however, they do not certainly follow moving target). Repetition rate of weapon grade lasers are slower, because large amounts of energy must be transferred to active laser media.

Pulse energy and repetition rate would work exactly like bullet damage and shooting speed. It would be easy to implement but maybe CW laser with variable power would give interesting diversity in game mechanics and they are also visually nicer (assuming visible wavelength). It would also react to low power situations with decreasing power. Maybe biters could also react to laser beams and try to avoid them instead of running into certain death against overwhelming enemy.

Omnifarious wrote:It would also seem to have a logical endpoint. I don't think you could get a pulse any shorter than the wavelength of the light you're using.

Practically no, but single wavelength value does not represent such short pulse very well. Spectrum widens and moves toward shorter wavelengths when pulse is shortened. Fastest attosecond lasers give pulses shorter than 100 as in vacuum ultraviolet range.

However, such short pulses are interesting only in physics research. In weapon use pulse energy is what matters. There is no reason to get pulse shorter (at least in crazy timescales of laser physics).

As someone else pointed out, when your pulses are frequent enough, the beam is going to look continuous regardless. And even if they aren't, you will see flickering, not some weird short red line moving at a discernable velocity towards its target. To get that with a laser, you'd have to create some sort of moving interference fringe effect.

Correct animation for visible laser pulse would be bright straight beam which dims out in couple of frames (imitating afterimage). That would probably look quite nice. Correct sound effect would be some kind of snapping instead of that classic scifi pew pew.

Why are you suggesting something that is already being worked on? Obviously they won't forget about changing the research. Is this just meant as a reminder or am I missing something here?

mrvn wrote: Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly.

Energy based rocket turret with splash damage and a mui mui longo recharge time with a massive power draw - yesplease.

Hannu wrote:

mrvn wrote:On the other hand just rename laser turrets to plasma turrets. Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly. Lasers would only be visible indirectly when they make air molecules glow as they pass through or light up dust in the air.

If you talk about realism, plasma bullets can not be stable. "Plasma guns" are purely fictive weapons.

Sci-Fi usually says that the plasma is held in some form of magnetic field. As time passes the field weakens, the plasma looses focus and dissipates. That explains why the range is limited. That also explains why it "explodes" on impact. Hitting something breaks the field as it deforms the plasma and then it expands freely.

mrvn wrote:

Hannu wrote:

mrvn wrote:On the other hand just rename laser turrets to plasma turrets. Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly. Lasers would only be visible indirectly when they make air molecules glow as they pass through or light up dust in the air.

If you talk about realism, plasma bullets can not be stable. "Plasma guns" are purely fictive weapons.

Sci-Fi usually says that the plasma is held in some form of magnetic field. As time passes the field weakens, the plasma looses focus and dissipates. That explains why the range is limited. That also explains why it "explodes" on impact. Hitting something breaks the field as it deforms the plasma and then it expands freely.

The problem with plasma is that it perfectly hits air same as any solid object. You could create a field containing plasma burst within a beam for some time but it will surely detonate right when it leaves vacuum accelerator.

PacifyerGrey wrote:

mrvn wrote:

Hannu wrote:

mrvn wrote:On the other hand just rename laser turrets to plasma turrets. Throwing blobs of plasma makes a lot more sense. Unlike lasers plasma is visible directly. Lasers would only be visible indirectly when they make air molecules glow as they pass through or light up dust in the air.

If you talk about realism, plasma bullets can not be stable. "Plasma guns" are purely fictive weapons.

Sci-Fi usually says that the plasma is held in some form of magnetic field. As time passes the field weakens, the plasma looses focus and dissipates. That explains why the range is limited. That also explains why it "explodes" on impact. Hitting something breaks the field as it deforms the plasma and then it expands freely.

The problem with plasma is that it perfectly hits air same as any solid object. You could create a field containing plasma burst within a beam for some time but it will surely detonate right when it leaves vacuum accelerator.

Ahh, air. Mostly nothing. Basically a vacuum compared to say alien flesh.

You could ionize the air with a laser beam first and then have the plasma travel along that path. So a solid line and then spheres traveling down the line. .oO(a snake that ate mice and they are trying to escape

Hedning1390 wrote:Why are you suggesting something that is already being worked on? Obviously they won't forget about changing the research. Is this just meant as a reminder or am I missing something here?

This is just my way of providing input on what I think the new research items should be. I would not think they would forget. And it seems likely to me that whatever they come up with will be better than what any individual here imagines. But, it still might be better for the input of the people commenting on this post.

Hannu wrote:Practically no, but single wavelength value does not represent such short pulse very well. Spectrum widens and moves toward shorter wavelengths when pulse is shortened. Fastest attosecond lasers give pulses shorter than 100 as in vacuum ultraviolet range.

Is this a Heisenberg uncertainty effect? Pulse length and frequency are two quantities that you do not exist with infinite precision at the same time?

Omnifarious wrote:Is this a Heisenberg uncertainty effect? Pulse length and frequency are two quantities that you do not exist with infinite precision at the same time?

Uncertainty principle is related to same kind of mathematics between quantum mechanical operators, but spectral broadening of short pulses is classical phenomena.

Any arbitrary waveform can be represented as sums of sinewaves at different frequencies. It is called Fourier transform in mathematics. Infinitely long sinewave has just one non-zero term and can be described as single wavelength. However, if signal duration is finite, we need sum of (infinitely) many frequencies. They are concentrated around center frequency and the shorter pulse is in time space the broader it is in frequency space.

You can find example pages and videos with google useing for example "fourier transform of short pulse" or just "fourier transform".

Hannu wrote:Any arbitrary waveform can be represented as sums of sinewaves at different frequencies. It is called Fourier transform in mathematics. Infinitely long sinewave has just one non-zero term and can be described as single wavelength. However, if signal duration is finite, we need sum of (infinitely) many frequencies. They are concentrated around center frequency and the shorter pulse is in time space the broader it is in frequency space.

It's nice to know I was barking up approximately the right tree. I was indeed thinking of Fourier transforms and how they would act with a short pulse length. Thanks.