Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

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bobucles
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by bobucles » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:39 am

Obviously a single gun is going to struggle to take down an entire army. That's only to be expected. AoE weapons like the flamer and extra guns like turrets give the force multipliers that a single shotgun can never accomplish.

The tech tree could benefit from being consolidated somewhat. It would be nice to have weapon researches condensed into broader topics like projectile, explosive and fancy. Some weapons don't get upgrades at all like land mines and others are too far out of the way for boosting a single niche weapon.

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bobingabout
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by bobingabout » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 am

that was another killer for the shotgun. you used to be able to shoot your normal weapons out of a car before the tank was added, then it was changed to the vehicle's weapon. so you were limited to SMG or the tank cannon. Tank now includes flamethrower too, but no vehicle has a shotgun on it. it reduces the apeal, because you can't use mass manufactured shotgun ammo in your car, but you can with your SMG ammo.
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by ThorsDragon » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:23 pm

I like most of these posts.

Shotguns are better against bases- they don't use a full piece of ammo per shot, and deal better damage against the bases then smg does. So they're cheaper/better options for taking down bases.
Also, I love the feeling of the combat shotgun with speed upgrades- feels good. :D

Main problem is that you can't effectively kill bases and biters at the same time with just a shotgun.
If you're playing multiplayer, one person can give you cover smg fire while you shotgun the base = most effective way to clear bases with low-tier science and weaponry. This is before flamethrowers, grenades, rockets, vehicles, etc. to be clear.
I like this mechanic as it 'buffs' multiplayer, so to speak. That being said, I agree that in general usage, shotgun is lacking, and needs a buff.

Preferably- I would like to see a very small nerf to other weapons, except nukes -they're supposed to be overpowered. Then buff shotguns, so there's balancing here, not just powercreep. I like the idea of making the spread more narrow, and adding another tier of ammo, lessening the move speed penalty, and increasing the damage per pellet. Plus increasing the range -or- alternatively lowering the range on spitters. Might be easier to increase range, as that only affects the shotgun to spitter relationship, whereas nerfing spitter range would affect nearly everything else combat related as well.

And another problem- Can we please get more weapon slots?? I hate that I can't carry all of my weapons on bar at the same time, even if that meant more rotating to get to the weapon that I want/need.

Sidenote- playing multiplayer with mods that increase health and movespeed made the idea of a melee weapon really cool. In a non-modded scenario, creating a power armor with only power, movepseed, and shields would allow the use of a melee weapon to be valid. Said melee weapon could be a sword at early game and some sort of energy sword/lightsaber at mid to end game tier, or some sort of possibility which will give a slight range increase- significantly shorter than any other weapon in the game.

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AileTheAlien
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by AileTheAlien » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:31 pm

BlakeMW wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:15 am
it should be removed from the game.
+1 for removing the shotgun from the game.

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darkfrei
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by darkfrei » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:15 pm

I've tried to make shotgun great again better here https://mods.factorio.com/mod/FearShotgun
But you cannot feel that this weapon has better performance. The gunshot turret is also not playable :cry:

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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by hobbitmax999 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:04 pm

bobucles wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:42 am
Clearly the shotgun suffers from being an okay weapon in a sea of great weapons. Some options:
- Nerf the other weapons. Makes the shotgun great but nerfs always make people mad
- buff the shotgun. Stronger pellets are cool but I'd like to see explosive pellets. Because reasons.
- merge research. Maybe every weapon doesn't need it's own research line. Instead use a more generic projectile/explosive tech. That way the shotgun is always on par with SMG.
in the new update 0.17 they will be merged like you want so shotguns speed and dmg goes up as well

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Shotguns no longer are competitive , with no useful niche

Post by Stakhanov » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:10 pm

While shotguns already had very limited uses in 0.16 , I'd argue the combat system change in 0.17 made them effectively useless beyond shooting isolated , undefended single nests prior to any weapon or ammo upgrades. An issue arises when trying to use them against worm or spitter defended nests : firing them slows you down for the whole reload cycle , making it very difficult to dodge acid spit. If even one acid hit connects and slows you down , you cannot continue shooting without being hit by any further acid attacks. The SMG by contrast , lets you fake out spitters and worms and manoeuver while shooting most of the time.

I did some testing on a custom scenario , trying various weapons and ammo types against biters , spitters and worms of increasing size.
With basic ammo , the SMG appears to be the superior general purpose weapon as it kills biters reliably (the shotgun can outright miss at point blank range) and works on small worms and nests just fine. The shotgun might possibly kill nests slightly faster , but that comes usually at the cost of health from biter attacks as they might not die before reaching you. Small biters and spitters can be dispatched with the pistol just as easily as with the shotgun.

Once you factor in piercing SMG ammo , it's no contest - the military 3 combat shotgun is inferior to the SMG. While it allows easier dodging , its effective damage is still too low to justify using it instead of the SMG or flamethrower.

Assuming no upgrades at all (which would not happen in freeplay) the combat shotgun with military 4 piercing shells is about on par with a piercing ammo SMG for the task of shooting medium biters at close range , and deals a bit more damage to a big biter (but he'll deal a lot of damage to you) and to a behemoth spitter. But the flamethrower makes a joke out of them.

I haven't tested max upgraded combat shotguns with piercing ammo and exoskeletons against end game nests , but I have a hunch they wouldn't fare too well. Consider that tanks and personal laser defense come right after military 3.

So it seems that shotguns could use some improvements. They might be made more reliable and damaging with a larger number of pellets , gain piercing shells much earlier (perhaps even alongside the SMG piercing ammo at military 2) and perhaps work better against crowds of biters with a stunning / knockback effect. There needs to be a reward for using them to justify the huge associated risk.

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Re: Shotguns no longer are competitive , with no useful niche

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:35 pm

Shotguns are very cost-effective*, but yeah, they become basically useless if you're facing more than 3 small worms concentrating fire on you.

*cost-effective in theory at least, I haven't tested if drag-building a dozen turrets and drag-filling them wouldn't end up more cost-effective because hardly any extra biters would have the time to spawn before the spawners and worms are dead...

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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by Koub » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:03 pm

[Koub] Merged into older topic on the same subject.
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Re: Shotgun is embarrassingly bad right now

Post by ManaUser » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:27 am

You know, one of the worst things about the shotgun is that it doesn't auto-aim. A shotgun (with scatter-shot) should be easier to hit with, but this design quirk means it's the opposite.

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