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trains stuck on blue chain signal

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trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:21 pm
by atkfrg56
I am having trouble with a train cache. I am trying to cache the trains as First In, First Out (FIFO). Either one of two bad options will happen. 1. In the screenshot, the train is stuck at the first chain signal, which is blue. There is 1 valid path for the train to take, but it is being stubborn and wants to choose a blocked path. The train gets stuck. 2. The train will somehow make it past the first chain signal and stop at one of the second chain signals. When I find this issue, the second chain signal is red. I think this may be due to timing... the chain signals are probably green and will turn red before the train can reach the second chain signal. I have not been able to find any similar blueprints for this FIFO cache idea. Any ideas?

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N3Q/mlEJpY9Mvd1Dv/gfqFTRF

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:33 am
by kingarthur
best suggestion i have is try putting a train station in front of the first chain signal and have trains stop there first as it will get them to recalculate their path from that station into the fifo setup and should then pick the open slot.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:02 am
by Lav
Alternatively, replace entry chain signal with regular signal, connect wires and enable passage only *after* one of the bays is open.

Though I'm kinda confused as to the purpose of this whole setup.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:26 pm
by mrvn
Won't work with signals. You need to use train stations to be able to govern which path a train takes.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:30 pm
by Mimos
Do you maybe have one more chain signal before the blue signal? Because once a train is in a block of chain signals it is no longer allowed to change its path. So try adding a normal signal just before the blue chain signal. Maybe you can post your savegame. Edit: ideally about a minute before a train gets stuck at the signal. Set autosave to a reasonable time (relative to how often this happens) and as soon as you spot a stuck train load the autosaves before that. Lower the autosave interval and repeat until you got a proper savegame. Of course you are not allowed to do anything during this time to keep everything deterministic/reproducible.

Edit 2:
Two other ideas:
- maybe some shorter train decides to go thorugh your station, this may cause a mess with your sensors
- maybe some of your checks can be fooled by yellow signals

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:25 pm
by atkfrg56
Thanks for the replies, there was a lot of helpful info for me to review. I am going to tinker with this a bit more, might end up putting train stations into the mix.

At the start of the cache is a rail signal followed by the first chain signal, which is the blue one that I am having trouble with. I would like to use the FIFO cache because I find that some mines will be used more than others, and I notice that it starts to dig into the refresh rate of the storage boxes at the mine. Example: Mine 1 is sitting idle with a full load while Mine 2 keeps getting used over and over and never has a chance to completely fill up.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:35 am
by Triaxx2
Right, I think you've got this one slightly over thought. What you want is one regular exit signal on the outbound section, then chain signals at the locomotive end. Then at the other end of each lane you want a regular signal and then one chain signal where the trains are waiting.

FIFO signalling is unneeded, because Factorio already does it. I just sat for a while and watched and they'll go in order of who arrived first. Even if say train 1 arrived in the middle train 2 in the last lane and train 3 in the first one, they'll still go in order. Although if you want 1,2,3,etc lanes in that order, you'd want one regular signal and one chain signal immediately after it on the locomotive end, and one regular signal on the Caboose end. Then the Caboose of Lane One is wired to the Locomotive signal of Lane 2, so Lane 2 is prevented from leaving while lane 1 is full.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:25 am
by mrvn
atkfrg56 wrote:Thanks for the replies, there was a lot of helpful info for me to review. I am going to tinker with this a bit more, might end up putting train stations into the mix.

At the start of the cache is a rail signal followed by the first chain signal, which is the blue one that I am having trouble with. I would like to use the FIFO cache because I find that some mines will be used more than others, and I notice that it starts to dig into the refresh rate of the storage boxes at the mine. Example: Mine 1 is sitting idle with a full load while Mine 2 keeps getting used over and over and never has a chance to completely fill up.
Having one mine getting more trains than the other is no problem as long as they can fill a train. You don't want trains sitting at a mine waiting for ore. So what you actually should do is disable each mine station when the buffer chests don't have enough ore to fill a train.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:42 am
by aaargha
I've tested your setup a bit (thanks for sharing the BP string, makes it really easy) and while I noticed the first one happening it was only for about half a second or so at most. The only way I could make a train wait at the blue signal was to put the oldest train in the stacker in manual mode.

The reason that the trains get stuck while heading into the stacker is probably because of this behaviour. Currently getting systems like this to work reliable is pretty hard, hopefully it gets better in 0.16 with the changes to train behaviour.

A simpler alternative that, does not use circuitry, has higher throughput, but also higher latency could be something like:
Screenshot
Blueprint
Triaxx2 wrote:Right, I think you've got this one slightly over thought. What you want is one regular exit signal on the outbound section, then chain signals at the locomotive end. Then at the other end of each lane you want a regular signal and then one chain signal where the trains are waiting.

FIFO signalling is unneeded, because Factorio already does it. I just sat for a while and watched and they'll go in order of who arrived first. Even if say train 1 arrived in the middle train 2 in the last lane and train 3 in the first one, they'll still go in order. Although if you want 1,2,3,etc lanes in that order, you'd want one regular signal and one chain signal immediately after it on the locomotive end, and one regular signal on the Caboose end. Then the Caboose of Lane One is wired to the Locomotive signal of Lane 2, so Lane 2 is prevented from leaving while lane 1 is full.
While it looks like it might be FIFO if they're all heading to the same station (I didn't test long enough to be sure) it is at least not FIFO if there are multiple stations after the stacker.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:16 pm
by Deadly-Bagel
Note that trains don't recalculate until they pass a signal (unless it's been fixed, not to my knowledge), so you'll want to create a sort of faux-chain signal, that's actually a regular signal manually wired up to behave like a chain signal.

Also, this is a waiting bay. As far as the trains are concerned, ALL paths are blocked so it's not a case of which bay is available, it's a case of which gets them closer to the destination. I'm less familiar with the logic behind this but I'm aware it can be a bit screwy. Honestly I think you're probably better off having a Train Stop in each waiting bay, that way it becomes a case of which path is available and the pathing will be more reliable, though it would involve tearing the whole thing down and starting again since you can't have Train Stops on diagonal rails. That would simplify the circuit logic however, just wire up the Train Stops to disable all but the desired one, then maybe a regular signal at the entrance to go red when no bays are available (if that's ever a problem).

I'd try the faux-signal first, it'll probably fix the problem.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:36 pm
by atkfrg56
Triaxx2 wrote:FIFO signalling is unneeded, because Factorio already does it. I just sat for a while and watched and they'll go in order of who arrived first. Even if say train 1 arrived in the middle train 2 in the last lane and train 3 in the first one, they'll still go in order.
I did some more tinkering and studying and this holds true most of the time, so I abandoned my FIFO circuit project. The trains may look out of order, but they follow some sort of FIFO pretty close. The exception I saw would appear that a far away train would be sent to the cache, lets call it TrainA. Afterwards, a train closer to the cache would be sent, lets call it TrainB. When looking at the just the cache, TrainB would arrive first and queue up, while TrainA would arrive sometime later. With FIFO, I would expect TrainB to leave first since it arrived at the cache first. Instead, TrainA would leave before TrainB. I think the cache order has to do with when the train path is calculated between stations. This exception also only happens if both TrainA and TrainB would sit in the cache together. The way that I used rail signals may also play a part with this.
mrvn wrote:Having one mine getting more trains than the other is no problem as long as they can fill a train. You don't want trains sitting at a mine waiting for ore. So what you actually should do is disable each mine station when the buffer chests don't have enough ore to fill a train.
I started to tinker with this and it opened an entire new journey. I have not been able to find a really good use for this station disabling yet, I am probably thinking about it with the wrong angle. One annoyance that I found was that I could not use a train to automatically visit a disabled station if I needed to conduct any manual repairs/work. We added a dedicated set of "shuttle" train stops to overcome this small issue. How are you using the disable station to benefit from it?

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:00 am
by Lav
atkfrg56 wrote:I started to tinker with this and it opened an entire new journey. I have not been able to find a really good use for this station disabling yet, I am probably thinking about it with the wrong angle. One annoyance that I found was that I could not use a train to automatically visit a disabled station if I needed to conduct any manual repairs/work. We added a dedicated set of "shuttle" train stops to overcome this small issue. How are you using the disable station to benefit from it?
A central supply station for 2-4-0 train.

Multiple demand stations for 2-4-0 train, set to enable when "T = 0" (set by combinator or train's ID). Additionally, unloading chests are wired to the station itself, which is set to "transmit to train" and "read train ID". A decider combinator (both input and output are wired into the network) checks for "resource > 2K" and outputs "T = 1" if that is true. Essentially, this setup ensures that the network contains a positive T signal when there are sufficient resources in storage OR there's a train on the station.

A train set to travel to supply station, load fully, travel to demand station (they're all named identically), unload until "resource > 8K" or train is empty. There may be a few trains with this config.

How it works.

A train is waiting on supply station fully loaded, some demand station storage drops below 2K, signal "T" is set to 0, station is enabled, train starts moving to demand station (another train moves into supply station and starts loading), train arrives to demand station and starts unloading, station is immediately disabled so no other train will path to it, train unloads until station storage exceeds set amount and departs back to supply station, station stays disabled because it's storage now exceeds lower limit (2K in this example).

This is effectively a hysteresis loop.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:07 am
by mrvn
atkfrg56 wrote:
mrvn wrote:Having one mine getting more trains than the other is no problem as long as they can fill a train. You don't want trains sitting at a mine waiting for ore. So what you actually should do is disable each mine station when the buffer chests don't have enough ore to fill a train.
I started to tinker with this and it opened an entire new journey. I have not been able to find a really good use for this station disabling yet, I am probably thinking about it with the wrong angle. One annoyance that I found was that I could not use a train to automatically visit a disabled station if I needed to conduct any manual repairs/work. We added a dedicated set of "shuttle" train stops to overcome this small issue. How are you using the disable station to benefit from it?
As said I use it to prevent trains going to a mine that doesn't have enough buffered ore to fill it. Same for crude oil.

And I use the reverse for manufactured goods. The iron plates train is always sitting at the smelter getting filled but only leaves when a consumer has enough space in their buffer chests to empty a train. Otherwise the consumer station stays disabled.

And yes, it's annoying that you can't send a train to a disabled station. Or to a specific station from a set with the same name.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:49 am
by DarkOmen
Simply put your tracks are too close together and its interfering with the signalling, not only do trains have problems going in but they have problems leaving too.
easiest solution to the problem is to remove every 2nd track, and place chain signals between them.

Re: trains stuck on blue chain signal

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:24 pm
by mrvn
Huh? The distance between tracks has no effect on signals. Unless you mean the tracks are too close together to put a signal between them.
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