Factorio Forums

TLDR: All proposed recipes (except flamethrower) are in keeping with the 3 tier upgrade system prevalent in Factorio (tier 1=x, tier 2=tier 1+y, tier 3=tier 2+z) plus some other changes for gameplay/realism. Proposed recipes are also scaled down to be less of a resource sink on iron/copper since imo infinite research covers that necessity.

Firearm Magazines-
Current Recipes:
Firearm Magazine: 4 Iron Plates
Piercing Rounds Magazine: 1 Firearm Magazine + 1 Steel Plate + 5 Copper Plates
Depleted Uranium Magazine: 1 Piercing Rounds Magazine + 1 Uranium-238

Proposed Changes:
Bullets: 4 Copper Plates
Piercing Bullets: 1 Firearm Magazine + 1 Steel Plate
Depleted Uranium Bullets: No Change

Rationale: In the early game, iron is in much greater demand than copper. Switching T1 bullets from iron to copper would put less strain on early factories. Also, (generally speaking) since most bullets have copper casings but only armor piercing bullets have steel cores it would make sense for copper to be moved to the tier 1 recipe.

Shotgun Shells-
Current Recipes:
Shotgun Shell: 2 Copper Plates + 2 Iron Plates
Piercing Shotgun Shell: 2 Shotgun Shells + 5 Copper Plates + 2 Steel Plates

Proposed Changes:
Shotgun Shell: 5 Copper Plates
Piercing Shotgun Shell: 1 Shotgun Shell + 2 Steel Plate
Dragon Breath Shells: 1 Piercing Shotgun Shell + 20 Petrol (Same as piercing shotgun shells but also adds fire DoT)

Rationale: Pretty much same as Firearm Magazines rationale plus I wanted to add a tier 3 ammo with a little creativity.

Flamethrower & Flame Turret-
Current Recipes:
Flamethrower Fuel: 50 Heavy Oil + 50 Light Oil + 5 Steel Plate
Flamethrower Turret Fuel: Crude Oil 100% | Heavy Oil 105% | Light Oil 110%

Proposed Changes:
Flamethrower Fuel : Fuel Canister + 50 Crude Oil 100% | Fuel Canister + 50 Heavy or Light Oil 105% | Fuel Canister + 50 Petrol 110%
Flamethrower Turret Fuel: Crude Oil 100% | Heavy or Light 105% | Petrol 110%

Rationale: While any oil can still be used, Petrol is the most demanded of the 3 processed oils and is also used in napalm IRL so it makes sense to be used in the top tier flame ammo recipe. As for replacing Steel, I like the idea of adding a recyclable fuel canister item which would be used for both flamethrower ammo and nuclear fuel cell recipes. Adding Fuel Cells would make the flamethrower ammo somewhat free (since oil never runs out) and also would eliminate the need to constantly feed iron to flamethrower fuel chemical plants as well as nuclear power setups.

Rockets-
Current Recipes:
Rocket: 1 Electronic Circuit + 1 Explosive + 2 Iron Plates
Explosive Rocket: 2 Explosives + 1 Rocket
Atomic Bomb: 20 Processing Units + 10 Explosives + 30 Uranium-235

Proposed Changes:
Rocket: 1 Electronic Circuits + 1 Solid Fuel + 1 Explosives + 2 Iron Plates
Explosive Rocket: 1 Rocket + 2 Explosives (Same single target damage as rocket + extra aoe damage)
Atomic Rocket: 1 Explosive Rocket + 10 Explosives + 20 Processing Unit + 30 Uranium-235

Rationale: Most modern missiles use a solid propellant so solid fuel is a good fit. Explosive Rockets use a Rocket in the recipe so it should perform directly better. Atomic bombs (in factorio) are the tier 3 ammo for the rocket launcher so it makes sense 1) to be renamed to Atomic Rocket 2) use the explosive rocket in the recipe.

Cannon Shells-
Current Recipes:
Cannon Shell: 1 Explosive + 2 Plastic Bars + 2 Steel Plates
Explosive Cannon Shell: 2 Explosives + 2 Plastic Bars + 2 Steel Plates
Uranium Cannon Shell: 1 Cannon Shell + 1 Uranium-238
Explosive Uranium Cannon Shell: 1 Explosive Cannon Shell + 1 Uranium-238

Proposed Changes:
Cannon Shell: 2 Copper Plates + 1 Steel Plate
Explosive Cannon Shell: 1 Cannon Shell + 2 Plastic Bars + 2 Explosives
Explosive Uranium Cannon Shell: 1 Explosive Cannon Shell + 1 Uranium-238

Rationale: Clear progression

Grenades-
Current Recipes:
Grenade: 5 Iron Plates, 10 Coal
Cluster Grenade: 5 Explosives + 7 Grenades + 5 Steel Plates

Proposed Changes:
Grenade: 1 Iron Plate, 10 Coal
Cluster Grenade: 2 Explosives + 7 Grenades + 2 Steel Plates
Atomic Bomb: 1 Cluster Grenade + 20 Processing Units + 30 Uranium-235 (5 second fuse... better run)

Rationale: Atomic Bomb=

By Petrol, I assume you mean Petroleum? Thinking on it, I will now call it Petrol as well.

Fuel Canisters, I assume mean The steel barrels, right?

Ranakastrasz wrote:Fuel Canisters, I assume mean The steel barrels, right?

I was contemplating whether it would be better to use the existing barrels or add a new item.

Using the existing barrels would be good because nothing would need to be added to the game, just change some recipes. However, it might be worth distinguishing between barrels and fuel cells as barrels are more meant for logistic purposes where as fuel cells would be for a more specific function.

Still Wrestling with the migration script, and the Nuclear bomb is still a Nuclear grenade, but aside from that it seems to mostly work.


I find physical examples help a lot in balancing things.

Wow that's awesome. Thanks for putting that together. Haven't had a chance to try it but once I do I'll report back whether I like my own ideas haha. Thanks again.

Heh, yea. I have trouble thinking of "What to Do", and I actually learned something from doing this.

Mainly that there isn't currently any intrinsic method of delaying actions, and I am going to have to get creative.

Thinking of having you plant a "Building" which explodes after 5 seconds, instead of it being a grenade.

Still, that nuclear grenade is pretty awesome.


Also, I have some disagreements on prices on some of your stuff, but I didn't change anything yet. I think...


Bullets are significantly cheaper. Thinking that 4 copper, then 4 copper+1 steel is sane-ish

Shotgun. Basic shell price got increased, but the piercing version quite cheap. Around a third of the price. Given how long shotgun ammo lasts, and how powerful, I don't think the discount is warented.
Piercing shotgun shell should be 20 petrol, not 2. - I made it fire off 8 instead of 16 shots, each of which apply one flame-thinggy, unlike flamethrower which applies 2 per whatever... So it sets stuff on fire, but not as effectively. Still quite fun . Also, it doesn't seem to properly melt the barrel of the weapon. xd

Flamer -> Interesting enough. Petrol isn't as scarce as you make it out to be, but I understand this. not really sure this is good behavior, but w.e. Maybe Oil -> Light+Heavy -> Petrol+Acid?
I don't think I remembered the flame-turret fuel. Have to check.
It is currently not possible to have ammunition that returns something when consumed. No script lets you detect weapon usage, ammo usage, or anything like that. Which sucks, a lot.

Rockets- Interesting at least. I like the solid fuel addition, been using that myself for awhile (Along with double range -> Sniper-ish). Why did you remove the circuit? it IS homing, afterall.
Atomic-Rocket. I am not sold on the reducing Uranium cost and Processing units. Also, I cut the AOE from 35 to 10.

Cannon. Nothing really notable here.


Grenade - Early game grenades are kinda needed IMO. Yes, I agree they should need explosives, but think of it as a "Crude Grenade" or something.
Cluster Grenade - Why reduce steel cost?
Atomic bomb - Fun. Again, no delay on explosion (Tried like 10 different things, nothing worked.) and not sold on reducing processing unit and uranium cost. Late game, you have plenty of both, and given the power, its well worth it.


Poison/Slowdown - I think using oil-something to make them makes more sense personally. Glue and poison gas seem like something you might want to make.



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I've been around trying to balance Ammuntion. Most notable changes I made.
-Flamethrowers were shorter ranged, and shredded buildings, while big+ biters pretty much ignored it.
-Rockets had double range, -50% attack speed, and did 2-3x damage to big+ biters. Tends to let you snipe them in 2-3 shots, because ROCKET. (You can add negative resistances, Fun!)
-Shotgun ammo was set to 2, so you burned through it at a reasonable rate given it's power. Did bonus damage to larger biters, reduced to buildings. Good to fight Behemoths, ok vs buildings.
-SMG - Added "Bolter Rounds" for T3, (before Uranium rounds) which did explosive and splash damage, to let you deal with higher level stuff. Also tends to shred conveyerbelts if you ran them near where biters showed up to attack.
-SMG turret - ~+8 range, slightly more than laser turrets. Ammunition cost in exchange for extra range.
-Mines - ~10x damage to main target. (Before stun effect).
-Spitters -> -25% damage, but no warmup, so they could fire at you even if you try to dance out of max range. A lot more dangerous as a result.
-Cannon -> Hueg Damage bonus vs Big+Biters, Bases.

You make some good points. I updated prices. I also changed grenade recipe to steel for logistic purposes since it was the only munition still using iron plates over steel plates.
Still need to playtest some more before summing my thoughts up.

I've been thinking, on this other suggestion. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46901&hilit=+ammo
It has issues, mainly that you need sulfur to start with, and blue assemblers, so isn't exactly ideal, and also makes bullets significant more expensive.

I think making something of both would be Interesting however.

~Requires sulfur mining mod to function

You can make "Explosive Powder" from coal and Sulfur. Use that for grenades instead of Explosives. Its early-game, no oil required, just sulfur deposits.

Bullets made from copper, Bullets + Powder -> Firearm Ammo.
For Piercing ammo, split it further into casing and projectile, which makes bullet.
Same with Uranium ammo.

Shotgun ammo the same.

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Been playing with the mod I made. Kinda nice to have more iron early, and an early copper sink. Also rushed some crappy flamer fuel.

I am thinking that altering flame-thrower fuel as such.

Oil -> 0.5 Damage modifer, lowest flame impact (1 stack)
Light + Heavy, As Vanilla.
Petroleum+ Sulfuric, +25% damage, and +25% base as acid damage.
Would make the chain a bit longer, and make it sort of a 3 tier thing. Raw, Initial Refining, Advanced refining. Not ideal, but there aren't really any other intermediaries I could add.

According to my 10 second google search sulfur is found (among other places) around hot springs as well as in iron and lead deposits.

Hot springs: Could be a fun entity to add to map generation for sulfur as well as geothermal power.
Iron deposits: Pros - Already in the base game. Cons - Every iron mine would require additional logistics
lead deposits: Pros - Both needed for ammunition. Cons - Not in base game

I like the idea of having pre-oil explosives. However, if basic explosives are to be made with coal and sulfur, then what would the recipe for advanced explosives be? A slightly longer google search (if I wasn't on a government watchlist before...) leads me to the conclusion that it'd have to be nitrogen based.

Slayn25 wrote:According to my 10 second google search sulfur is found (among other places) around hot springs as well as in iron and lead deposits.

Hot springs: Could be a fun entity to add to map generation for sulfur as well as geothermal power.
Iron deposits: Pros - Already in the base game. Cons - Every iron mine would require additional logistics
lead deposits: Pros - Both needed for ammunition. Cons - Not in base game

I like the idea of having pre-oil explosives. However, if basic explosives are to be made with coal and sulfur, then what would the recipe for advanced explosives be? A slightly longer google search (if I wasn't on a government watchlist before...) leads me to the conclusion that it'd have to be nitrogen based.

Advanced explosives would be Water, coal, and sulfur, and require a chemical plant, whereas the blast powder can be crafted in your inventory, or a T1 assembler.

Ranakastrasz wrote:Advanced explosives would be Water, coal, and sulfur, and require a chemical plant, whereas the blast powder can be crafted in your inventory, or a T1 assembler.

I don't have a better suggestion yet but I'm not liking the only difference between basic and advanced explosives being "add water".

Slayn25 wrote:

Ranakastrasz wrote:Advanced explosives would be Water, coal, and sulfur, and require a chemical plant, whereas the blast powder can be crafted in your inventory, or a T1 assembler.

I don't have a better suggestion yet but I'm not liking the only difference between basic and advanced explosives being "add water".

And using a more advanced assembler?

The only different between a tank shell and an explosive tank shell is "Add Explosive"
The only difference between Firearm ammo and piercing ammo is "Add Steel"
The only difference between Piercing ammo and Uranium ammo is "Add Uranium"

The only difference between Iron ore and Iron plates is "Smelt"

Not really seeing the issue here.

Because water is available from the beginning but steel and uranium are not. If all the parts needed for the advanced item are available from the beginning then you wouldn't bother with the basic item. Yes a chemical plant is not available at the beginning but if the ingredients are the same I'd want to justify why the plant is necessary. I could argue that the "advanced upgrade material" would be nitrogen which could only be obtained by being extracted from the air in a chemical plant. However, that doesn't create any logistic puzzles to solve. Maybe solid fuel would have a place in the advanced recipe as well?

Your point on cannon shells is noted. If explosive cannon shells are being changed from a tier 1 variant to the singular tier 2 item in the chain then the recipe should probably reflect that it is more advanced than the tier 1 version.

Cannon Shell: 2 Copper Plates + 1 Steel Plate
Explosive Cannon Shell: 1 Cannon Shell + 2 Plastic Bars + 2 Explosives
Explosive Uranium Cannon Shell: 1 Explosive Cannon Shell + 1 Uranium-238

With a few recipe/tech tweaks maybe having the tank available (w/ basic shells) before oil would be a good thing.

Slayn25 wrote:I could argue that the "advanced upgrade material" would be nitrogen which could only be obtained by being extracted from the air in a chemical plant. However, that doesn't create any logistic puzzles to solve. Maybe solid fuel would have a place in the advanced recipe as well?

Straight-up nitrogen wouldn't add any logistic puzzles. Ammonium nitrate would, though.

Solid Fuel + Ammonium Nitrate = Advanced Explosives

Ammonia + Nitric Acid = Ammonium Nitrate

I'm not sure how nitric acid is made, so I can't provide a suggested recipe for it, but ammonia could have two routes to making it: from nitrogen and water (assuming implicit electrolysis of water for hydrogen in the chemical plant), or from a byproduct of making biofuel from wood or gas from coal (I forget which of these two produces it).

Roxor128 wrote:

Slayn25 wrote:I could argue that the "advanced upgrade material" would be nitrogen which could only be obtained by being extracted from the air in a chemical plant. However, that doesn't create any logistic puzzles to solve. Maybe solid fuel would have a place in the advanced recipe as well?

Straight-up nitrogen wouldn't add any logistic puzzles. Ammonium nitrate would, though.

Solid Fuel + Ammonium Nitrate = Advanced Explosives

Ammonia + Nitric Acid = Ammonium Nitrate

I'm not sure how nitric acid is made, so I can't provide a suggested recipe for it, but ammonia could have two routes to making it: from nitrogen and water (assuming implicit electrolysis of water for hydrogen in the chemical plant), or from a byproduct of making biofuel from wood or gas from coal (I forget which of these two produces it).

That second route could be quite interesting for gameplay. (Coal liquefaction being essential for advanced explosives)

In ammunition/weapons rebalancing I would consider buffing uranium (explosive) cannon shells before even considering the cost. I like the tank cannon but uranium ammunition is just so much better than uranium shells at killing biters and for picking off nests from a distance there's little difference between uranium and normal variants.
IMO uranium shells should get bigger range so it is at least some incentive to use them. It is also realistic as more dense ammunition has bigger range.

PunkSkeleton wrote:In ammunition/weapons rebalancing I would consider buffing uranium (explosive) cannon shells before even considering the cost. I like the tank cannon but uranium ammunition is just so much better than uranium shells at killing biters and for picking off nests from a distance there's little difference between uranium and normal variants.
IMO uranium shells should get bigger range so it is at least some incentive to use them. It is also realistic as more dense ammunition has bigger range.

Whaaaaaaa????

You do realize that Explosive Uranium Cannons one-shot Behemoth Biters at ~(infinite) Research level 8, and start to one-shot Behemoth Spitters on splash damage soon after that? (Like level 10 or 11 or so). Explosive Uranium Cannons are the best infinite research in the game, giving over +600 damage per research tier. You very quickly start to one-shot and two-shot (with splash damage) behemoths.

Cannons also have like 30-range, the same range as a Nuke in this game. They're... really good. Probably the 2nd best endgame weapon (after the Nuke obviously). Just have Personal Laser Defense drones (or Destroyer Robots) handle the cannon fodder. Aim only for Behemoth Biters and tight-clusters of enemies... and let the auto-drones automatically kill the weaker stuff.