[0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.5

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StavroM
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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by StavroM » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:06 pm
Before the change, wood pellets had 12 MJ. Now they have 8 MJ. The new charcoal adapts that decrease factor (12x2,5 = 30 MJ <-> 5x4MJ = 20 MJ), which is fine, because it was very powerful before.
Thanks for the correction, though in my opinion the double power costs for slag seem to be the balancing factor there. Personally, I'd leave all the original recipes as-is (1 brick to 12 charcoal at 2.5MJ each), and eliminate the basic algae recipe entirely. As things are now, the basic algae recipe makes the others obsolete outside of a few edge cases.
ukezi wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:44 pm
However in 0.16 the boiler ate halve the energy giving you 60 MJ of electricity. In 0.17 they don't and it gets you 80MJ of electricity.
Fair point. But for charcoal filtering, carbon for electronics, etc, all the charcoal costs are still the same as before, so it takes double the cellulose to keep up the same production rates.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by randomdude » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:00 am

One subtle change in all this is the fact that with the buffs to arboretums, and the fact that the metal mixing furnace is back at the electronics research (instead of alloy processing), along the small nerfs to algae (with either the increased footprint of the easy recipe, or the nerf to charcoal as it now uses more relative percentage for the algae loop) it might make the rush to arboretums a thing again.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by jodokus31 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:54 pm

StavroM wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm
... though in my opinion the double power costs for slag seem to be the balancing factor there. Personally, I'd leave all the original recipes as-is (1 brick to 12 charcoal at 2.5MJ each), and eliminate the basic algae recipe entirely. As things are now, the basic algae recipe makes the others obsolete outside of a few edge cases.
randomdude wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:00 am
One subtle change in all this is the fact that with the buffs to arboretums, and the fact that the metal mixing furnace is back at the electronics research (instead of alloy processing), along the small nerfs to algae (with either the increased footprint of the easy recipe, or the nerf to charcoal as it now uses more relative percentage for the algae loop) it might make the rush to arboretums a thing again.
Speaking again for marathon balancing:
The main hit is the slower slag recipe, both for plates and for fuel. for fuel, the basic algae can help (landfill and farms are not so expensive, only the steam engines are difficult), but for plates, there is not much until geodes: There is sorting, mineral sludge, iron smelting to squeeze out more of each slag or run green algae from excess mineralized water.
Scaling up and or researching is problematic with the expensive steam engines and with basically halfed plate income.
Running Arbortums is unevenly more expensive in marathon, because of the steady iron requirement. Have to check, how much it is now with reduced sawblades and if its better than algae.
geodes seem to solve everything, because it produces more than enough mineralized water to power it with green algae. But its a long way there.

I would vote to buff basic slag and ignore/remove or enhance the new slag recipe. This solves 2 things:
- faster plates from beginning, without too big jump to geodes (Its fine, if geodes stays significantly better, but not so much)
- advanced green algae is more competitive compared to basic algae

The new slag recipe is a strange thing. Maybe it would be ok, if the catalyst could be refreshed with a non metal substance (f.e. carbon). I dont know, if it makes any sense in reality.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by mrvn » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:42 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:00 pm
It was smart to quickly get the Mk2 (Steel) Boiler for the 60% efficiency. Hopefully we'll get this aspect back.
Current boilers are all the same efficiency. They just save space as 1 upper tire replaces one of the tire below. And they cause less pollution I believe.

So really not much incentive to use anything but mk I.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Psyramics » Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am

I ran the numbers through Helmod real quick.

To produce 10 Charcoal / second (40MW of power) with Tier 1 machines:
Basic Green Algae requires 13 MW
Green Algae with Mineral Water requires 19.3MW
Arboretums require 11MW

The Arboretum may not be fully accurate, since I can't figure out how to plug in the composter, or how to make the mud generation work right.

Arboretums are definitely the most efficient, but they are so much more complex to set up.
Basic Algae comes in second, at about 66% efficiency. Very simple set up but requires a lot of space.
Mineral Water is the worst by far. Slightly over 50% efficiency. With the increased complexity, I would say to skip it entirely.

All of these take an enormous amount of space though.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by minno » Wed May 01, 2019 1:19 am

Psyramics wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am
The Arboretum may not be fully accurate, since I can't figure out how to plug in the composter, or how to make the mud generation work right.
To find the composter recipes in Helmod, check "show hidden" in the recipe selector and then go to the "voids" section at the very end.

To get mud generation to work right, set the last machine in the mud water to saline water chain to 20%, the next to last to 25%, the next to 33.33333%, and the next to 50%, leaving the first one at 100%. Here's a Helmod production line you can import to get the ratios right (and as a bonus, one with the right ratios for making crystal dust from geode washing):
Helmod production line

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by randomdude » Wed May 01, 2019 1:48 am

Psyramics wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am
Mineral Water is the worst by far. Slightly over 50% efficiency. With the increased complexity, I would say to skip it entirely.
The thing most people skip is the fact that you can get soo much mineralized water from ore generation, both by processing the sulfuric waste water, and liquifying the crushed stone after crushing the ore. In 0.3.3, it was enough to almost cover the power required to generate the ore using slag (with all mk1s) and even generate power with geodes.

In 0.3.4 with the nerfs it only covers 50% of the power, but it's free mineralized water, which is the most power hungry thing in that chain

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Psyramics » Wed May 01, 2019 2:53 am

randomdude wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:48 am
Psyramics wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am
Mineral Water is the worst by far. Slightly over 50% efficiency. With the increased complexity, I would say to skip it entirely.
The thing most people skip is the fact that you can get soo much mineralized water from ore generation, both by processing the sulfuric waste water, and liquifying the crushed stone after crushing the ore. In 0.3.3, it was enough to almost cover the power required to generate the ore using slag (with all mk1s) and even generate power with geodes.

In 0.3.4 with the nerfs it only covers 50% of the power, but it's free mineralized water, which is the most power hungry thing in that chain
Yeah, these numbers are for generating it from scratch. Significant portions of your factory won't be producing any crushed stone, and neither will starter bases.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed May 01, 2019 10:04 am

The best part is that you can also use that crushed stone for landfill !

P.S.: And generally, they're so polyvalent !
They make stone, mud, sulfur !
geode_rain2.jpg
geode_rain2.jpg (1.15 MiB) Viewed 1735 times
In fact, they might be a bit *too* good -
(Sea Block having removed the Thermal Water to Mineral Sludge filtering)
- their only "upgrade" is Biter Breeding, but it seems to be strictly worse (at least in 0.16) ?

Also, it feels like the Geode crushing to Crystal Dust part, being more complex than direct Geode to Crystal Slurry acid dissolving, should have its own, higher-placed tech ?

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Mpmpmpmp » Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm

maybe, we can switch the breaking catalyst with "Dirty catalist" that would work exactly somehow like a aluminium filter


and clean it wih acid sulfuric AND purified water, and create a positive loop with the resulting sulfuric wastes byproduct??

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by NeptuneJr2 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:44 pm

Mpmpmpmp wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm
maybe, we can switch the breaking catalyst with "Dirty catalist" that would work exactly somehow like a aluminium filter


and clean it wih acid sulfuric AND purified water, and create a positive loop with the resulting sulfuric wastes byproduct??
I think that would be a cool new way to get sulfur. Either that or you need to replenish it with more carbon. It's just the steel consumption that is a problem.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Mpmpmpmp » Wed May 01, 2019 10:17 pm

no carbon, best would be to use platine, would make sense (to craft it)

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by mrvn » Thu May 02, 2019 3:10 pm

randomdude wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:48 am
Psyramics wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:34 am
Mineral Water is the worst by far. Slightly over 50% efficiency. With the increased complexity, I would say to skip it entirely.
The thing most people skip is the fact that you can get soo much mineralized water from ore generation, both by processing the sulfuric waste water, and liquifying the crushed stone after crushing the ore. In 0.3.3, it was enough to almost cover the power required to generate the ore using slag (with all mk1s) and even generate power with geodes.

In 0.3.4 with the nerfs it only covers 50% of the power, but it's free mineralized water, which is the most power hungry thing in that chain
I'm using the mineralized water from the sulfuric waste water to create charcoal for the filter frames. Does the remaining mineralized water cover 50% of the power or was that for all of it using maybe ceramic filters?

I'm tempted to use the mineralized water for crystalization and the crushed stone from ore crushing for more landfill, mineral sludge or all the other uses for cellulose fiber / wood bricks / charcoal / carbon and just stick with the basic green algae power plants. Trying to balance the power requirements with the variable production of mineral sludge and other algae uses becomes difficult as you grow.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by randomdude » Thu May 02, 2019 3:57 pm

mrvn wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:10 pm
I'm using the mineralized water from the sulfuric waste water to create charcoal for the filter frames. Does the remaining mineralized water cover 50% of the power or was that for all of it using maybe ceramic filters?

I'm tempted to use the mineralized water for crystalization and the crushed stone from ore crushing for more landfill, mineral sludge or all the other uses for cellulose fiber / wood bricks / charcoal / carbon and just stick with the basic green algae power plants. Trying to balance the power requirements with the variable production of mineral sludge and other algae uses becomes difficult as you grow.
It is 50% of the power for each plate if you:

- Process all the sulfuric waste water and use that mineralized water
- Liquify the crushed stone from crushing the ore for more mineralized water
- Make charcoal with all the mineralized water, use it for filters, and the remaining for algae power.
- It's 50% if you melt the straight stiratite or whatever, dunno if it's better or worse for more advanced recipes

Also, with the current state of the electrolysers, it might be better to use that crushed stone for more sludge, or process the ore for another slag, and so more sludge too, given the speed of the new electros, but dunno the power savings of those routes

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by wormzjl » Thu May 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Code: Select all

   7.175 Error ModManager.cpp:1294: Failed to load mod "SeaBlock": __SeaBlock__/data.lua:8: attempt to index field 'player' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
	__SeaBlock__/data.lua:8: in main chunk
   7.179 Loading mod core 0.0.0 (data.lua)
   7.302 Checksum for core: 3570686030
   7.839 Error ModManager.cpp:1294: Error in assignID, recipe-category with name 'crafting' does not exist.
Seems that seablock is broken after updating factorio to 0.17.35

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Zavian » Fri May 03, 2019 4:05 am

wormzjl wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Code: Select all

   7.175 Error ModManager.cpp:1294: Failed to load mod "SeaBlock": __SeaBlock__/data.lua:8: attempt to index field 'player' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
	__SeaBlock__/data.lua:8: in main chunk
   7.179 Loading mod core 0.0.0 (data.lua)
   7.302 Checksum for core: 3570686030
   7.839 Error ModManager.cpp:1294: Error in assignID, recipe-category with name 'crafting' does not exist.
Seems that seablock is broken after updating factorio to 0.17.35
0.17.35 made modding prototype/api changes that will break a lot of mods. I suggest sticking with 0.17.34 for at least a few days if you want to play seablock.

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Plasticizer » Fri May 03, 2019 12:58 pm

I've fixed an issue with the modpack, version 0.17.35 wasn't compatible anymore with the data.lua & control.lua.

Changes (replace [line] with the code below):
- control.lua[129]
local inv = player.get_main_inventory()
- data.lua[8]
if data.raw.player and data.raw.player.player then --pre 0.17.35
table.insert(data.raw.player.player.crafting_categories, "crafting-handonly")
elseif data.raw.character and data.raw.character.character then --post 0.17.35
table.insert(data.raw.character.character.crafting_categories, "crafting-handonly")
end

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by WladySpb » Fri May 03, 2019 4:45 pm

I'm slightly surprised about new recipe of dirt water electrolisers... If calculate in helmod, 30 electrolisers required 3 (15in - 12out) electrodes in second. To create them, needs 3 steel + 3 carbone. 3 steel makes from 12 iron, cteated from 45 slug(in second recipe) But 30 electrolyzers create only 15 slugs per second!

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by torne » Fri May 03, 2019 4:58 pm

WladySpb wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:45 pm
I'm slightly surprised about new recipe of dirt water electrolisers... If calculate in helmod, 30 electrolisers required 3 (15in - 12out) electrodes in second. To create them, needs 3 steel + 3 carbone. 3 steel makes from 12 iron, cteated from 45 slug(in second recipe) But 30 electrolyzers create only 15 slugs per second!
Right - that's because the recipe change was made by Angel for regular, non-seablock games, not by/for the seablock mod. In normal angel+bob games you are usually creating at least a reasonable proportion of your iron from actual ore mined out of the ground, and so there's no particular reason for there to be an efficient slag cycle there.

When you're not doing seablock you would typically be using electrolysis to create oxygen and hydrogen, with the slag being considered a byproduct that happens to be recyclable; in seablock it's the other way around :)

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Re: [0.17] Sea Block Pack 0.3.4

Post by Tide » Fri May 03, 2019 10:15 pm

I really like the farm changes, it feels like they're a solid mid-game power solution. And enriched fuel blocks get to be the same 20% bonus as charcoal pellets, which is a great place for them.

I'm a little concerned about two of the changes from the most recent version of Angels and how they affect Seablock:

Electrolysers having their recipe time doubled doubles the cost of anything made by slag. Early plates being more expensive is fine if you want to push people towards geodes for mineral slurry, but bricks and landfill are already a major bottleneck in how the game progresses and this seems like its going to make an already long early game longer. This also makes green algae from co2 and mineralised water terrible, as others have mentioned.

Fibre from wood being halved means arboretums about a third worse than they were in 0.16, even with the added requirement for saw blades. At the moment it seems the best power transition is basic algae -> farms.

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