Factorio Forums

Maybe I am missing something, but I should be able to build express underground belt.

entire screenshot:
http://imageshack.com/a/img841/7043/8e7v.png

savegame:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvbr5gpyp2dcwup/EUB-bug.zip

Thanks for the report. Actually this is not a bug per se. Maybe a wrong feature. The problem is that the tooltip can show information from 2 different viewpoints:

1) Player crafting viewpoint - or what do I need for the recipe to craft
2) Real (assembling machine) crafting viewpoint - or what is the "cost" of 1 recipe

The difference is subtle but tricky when recipes with multiple outputs come to play. Let's have a look at the simple example: transport belt costs 3 iron but output 2 belts. So the "real" price of crafting 5 belts is 2.5 * 3 = 7.5 iron plates. But the "player crafting" price is 9 (you need to craft 3 pairs). In your example somewhere the 5 belts were needed for building the basic belt-to-ground which then lead to the effect you observed.

Also I remember we had this "fantastic" idea. The numbers will be shown for the "real viewpoint" but the red color for the "player viewpoint". However maybe this just adds to confusion when you have 138 iron plates but the field is red.

I will move this to Ideas & Suggestions for now because it is not a bug but something that might be changed. I think there was a discussion about this before, but if anyone has idea how to solve this speak up:)

Ok, I see. As you explain this there is mechanism in some cases where odd product is more expensive and even one is cheaper due to constructing some product in pairs (groups). So odd product requires construct more than it need but even product use it because it's already constructed and don't need extra sources. The more product you construct the number become more precise.

It's a quite tricky situation. For me is displaying "optimistic" raw sources the bad option. I would rather see "pessimistic" number for situation where you have just raw sources and thus your rounding always lean towards worse/higher number. Or just display range of values where numbers will be "optimistic" - "pessimistic", so player may prepare on situation depending on how many and which semi-products has in its inventory.

I always use this raw source number just for approximate calculation, nothing exact. If you highlight its low precision information which should not be used for exact calculations it might be fain.

slpwnd wrote:I think there was a discussion about this before, but if anyone has idea how to solve this speak up:)

I had a big search about that, now over 40 minutes and finally found it: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =11&t=1424
Phuuuu . I'm not sure, but I mean there was another discussion about that.

As idea I recommended to show both numbers: the optimistic and the pessimistic. Because it is a range!
This fits also with my idea around how smart inserters should operate the equal operation: it's a range!
It's always a pessimistic and a optimistic number.

This is interesting.

[This fits also with my idea about the deep insides of quantum physics, but this gets now a little bit off topic. ]

ssilk wrote:As idea I recommended to show both numbers: the optimistic and the pessimistic. Because it is a range!
This fits also with my idea around how smart inserters should operate the equal operation: it's a range!
It's always a pessimistic and a optimistic number.

There is not enough space for this

A tab to switch between both displays?

How relevant is this when just one simple extra iron plate will make this problem disappear?

It is, because this "bug" will come up over and over.

ssilk wrote:A tab to switch between both displays?

+1
A tooltip that says "Amount for AssemMachine. Pres <key> to switch for Player exact"

I think it's the best idea

Or a hover, or a simple button, or something else. Many possibilities, the most simplest is the best.

And because I answer: I think it is an interesting fact for most players, that there are different ways to count the ingredients of the same thing in different ways, dependent on how you count, and I also think it is important for the gameplay to make a hint for the players understand this difference.

... because the same questions will come over and over here: How much time is needed to built something? for example. They need to understand, that there is a big difference between crafting single items, piece by piece and doing that in a big highlife style, where only the statistical middle counts.

less clutter in GUI - better.

If this problem is so bad it needs solving - add toggle to game options instead.

Show the tenths digit with hundreds, and if 138.5 is too tight fit, make it fit? And above 999 it gets rounded so much it does not matter?

The simpler the better I agree. IMHO it is not really a big problem (considering only one bug report for quite such a long time). But if we are to solve it then I am for changing it to the crafting numbers (experiences players will figure this out, but new people can get confused when they see they have the requirements in the inventory but still can't craft).

I think that the "clean" way would be to add an option in the menu to toggle between the current numbers (for experienced players) and a "manual crafting" number, ON by default, for the amount of resources needed to craft 1 item with only raw in the inventory (no 1.5 copper).