Bugs & FAQ

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

Moderator: Arch666Angel

curiosity
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by curiosity »

valneq wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:55 pm
I usually don't consider purified water to be an issue, as you can get it just from electricit by cooling down steam.

The ratio between mineral slurry to mineral sludge is the same, just as is the ratio between crystal slurry to crystal seedling. So these don't count for the comparison.

The main difference between the recipes is actually sulfur. Imagine you build a loop that recycles the sulfuric waste water and feeds sulfur back into the process to make sulfuric acid for the slurry.

With coal filtering, this cycle is positive on sulfur. In away, this process washes out the sulfur from the coal, just like clean coal to coke does.

With ceramic filtering, this cycle is negative on sulfur. Furthermore, this is not a sink for coal. Coal can be more valuable to turn into coke (for smelting) or solid fuel (for boilers/trains).

There are additional differences as to how much mineralized water you get out, or how much purified water needs to go in, but these liquids are used (or produced) in so many other recipes that it is not really helpful to consider them at this point.

The fact that the filtering itself is faster and thus requires fewer filtration units is counter balanced by the fact that you need more assemblers to wash the used ceramic filters, as compared to putting coal back into the filter frames.
None of what you said anwers my question. I don't even have a clue what you were trying to say with your post. Inform me about the mod's basic mechanic? I believe, I have played plenty of it by now that I am familiar with recipes and how they interact (albeit, in Seablock, so IDK how these recipes factor into a regular playthrough).

But let me elaborate.
Currently, the coal filtering recipe is as follows (sans filter):
50 slurry + 50 purified (or 100 mineral) water + 4 seconds = 50 product fluid + 40 sulfuric waste
The ceramic filtering, on the other hand, is this (sans filter):
35 slurry + 50 purified (or 100 mineral) water + 2 seconds = 35 product fluid + 20 sulfuric waste

As you can see, with the ceramic filtering most values are halved (and slurry/product is slightly more than half, supposedly to make the recipe more efficient) except water ingredient. This does seem to me like the water amount is supposed to be halved as well. Hence my question: is the recipe supposed to be like it is now? What is the thought behind it?

Does this make my point clearer?

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

curiosity wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:19 pm
None of what you said anwers my question. I don't even have a clue what you were trying to say with your post. Inform me about the mod's basic mechanic? I believe, I have played plenty of it by now that I am familiar with recipes and how they interact (albeit, in Seablock, so IDK how these recipes factor into a regular playthrough).

But let me elaborate.
Currently, the coal filtering recipe is as follows (sans filter):
50 slurry + 50 purified (or 100 mineral) water + 4 seconds = 50 product fluid + 40 sulfuric waste
The ceramic filtering, on the other hand, is this (sans filter):
35 slurry + 50 purified (or 100 mineral) water + 2 seconds = 35 product fluid + 20 sulfuric waste

As you can see, with the ceramic filtering most values are halved (and slurry/product is slightly more than half, supposedly to make the recipe more efficient) except water ingredient. This does seem to me like the water amount is supposed to be halved as well. Hence my question: is the recipe supposed to be like it is now? What is the thought behind it?

Does this make my point clearer?
Let us include the filters and the restoration of the filters into these total recipes (normalized to 1000 product fluid):

Coal filtering
4 coal + 1000 purified water + 1000 slurry → 1000 product fluid + 800 sulfuric waste

Ceramic filtering
2858 purified water + 1000 slurry → 1000 product fluid + 571.5 sulfuric waste

The requirement for purified water is more than doubled, and exactly half of that purified is needed to wash the used ceramic filters.
On the other hand, the output of sulfuric waste is also reduced.

Your suggestion is to not increase the purified water requirement for the filtering recipe. If the washing still needs 50 purified per used filter, that would reduce the total required purified water to 2429, or by about 17%.

I still think that this makes hardly a difference. In any case, you have a drastically increased consumption of purified water when you do ceramic filtering.

But the upside is, like I said earlier, that the entire process becomes negative in sulfur and no longer acts as a sink for coal. Those latter two points can be more important than the increased purified water requirement. These two recipes are just two alternatives with their up and down sides. You can choose which is more important to you. And this answer can change during the course of a game.

User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1404
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MeduSalem »

valneq wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:53 pm
But the upside is, like I said earlier, that the entire process becomes negative in sulfur and no longer acts as a sink for coal. Those latter two points can be more important than the increased purified water requirement. These two recipes are just two alternatives with their up and down sides. You can choose which is more important to you. And this answer can change during the course of a game.
Interesting. I didn't know that the coal filters are positive and the ceramic filters negative on sulfur.

Maybe that is why I ran into a serious sulfuric acid/sulfur bottleneck lately after switching to pure ceramic filter usage a while ago.

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

MeduSalem wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:05 pm
Maybe that is why I ran into a serious sulfuric acid/sulfur bottleneck lately after switching to pure ceramic filter usage a while ago.
When this switch happens, it might be a good idea to start taking sulfur directly from the polluted air with lime filters, which is unlocked with sulfur processing 3, I believe.

curiosity
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by curiosity »

valneq wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:53 pm
Let us include the filters and the restoration of the filters into these total recipes (normalized to 1000 product fluid):

Coal filtering
4 coal + 1000 purified water + 1000 slurry → 1000 product fluid + 800 sulfuric waste

Ceramic filtering
2858 purified water + 1000 slurry → 1000 product fluid + 571.5 sulfuric waste

The requirement for purified water is more than doubled, and exactly half of that purified is needed to wash the used ceramic filters.
On the other hand, the output of sulfuric waste is also reduced.

Your suggestion is to not increase the purified water requirement for the filtering recipe. If the washing still needs 50 purified per used filter, that would reduce the total required purified water to 2429, or by about 17%.

I still think that this makes hardly a difference. In any case, you have a drastically increased consumption of purified water when you do ceramic filtering.

But the upside is, like I said earlier, that the entire process becomes negative in sulfur and no longer acts as a sink for coal. Those latter two points can be more important than the increased purified water requirement. These two recipes are just two alternatives with their up and down sides. You can choose which is more important to you. And this answer can change during the course of a game.
Firstly, none of this answers my question. Do you or do you not have any developer info on what it is supposed to be?
Secondly, this is not a suggestion in any way, shape or form.
Thirdly, your math is wrong.

alercah
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:19 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by alercah »

It's an explanation of why it is that way. I.e., confirmation that it is intended.

curiosity
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by curiosity »

alercah wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 am
It's an explanation of why it is that way. I.e., confirmation that it is intended.
I don't see how it confirms or explains anything relevant. I'd rather wait for a reply from a developer (or a quote of any such).

User avatar
Arch666Angel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:52 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by Arch666Angel »

@curiosity
There are some basic rules:
For each input, there is one output. Recipe that don't follow this rules have a special role/reason (e.g. compression, sink, transformation... etc)

The two filtering recipes have their own roles as @valneq rightly explained, but you are right in the regard that they should more close to the 1:1 rate which would mean that the ceramic should have a tad lower purified requirement.

User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1404
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MeduSalem »

valneq wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:23 am
When this switch happens, it might be a good idea to start taking sulfur directly from the polluted air with lime filters, which is unlocked with sulfur processing 3, I believe.
Yeah, that was how I solved the sulfur problem when I noticed the bottleneck. At least now I also know where the bottleneck was coming from in the first place because I looked around the mess that is my base and couldn't make any rhyme or reason of it.

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

curiosity wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:06 am
Thirdly, your math is wrong.
What exactly do you mean? I used Helmod to get those numbers and I trust it more or less blindly. If Helmod makes errors, I am in big trouble.

MrRozdor
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:23 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MrRozdor »

I'm unable do research silicon processing:
https://i.imgur.com/wHMBB17.jpg

It requires chemical-processing-2 that is disabled for the player force, however its prototype is enabled.
I didn't find the exact cause of it, but I assume it's one of Angel's mods since it changes bob's mods, or it may be caused by migrations.
Can someone help me?

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

MrRozdor wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:11 am
I'm unable do research silicon processing:
https://i.imgur.com/wHMBB17.jpg

It requires chemical-processing-2 that is disabled for the player force, however its prototype is enabled.
I didn't find the exact cause of it, but I assume it's one of Angel's mods since it changes bob's mods, or it may be caused by migrations.
Can someone help me?
Silicon Processing should depend on both Advanced Silicon Smelting and Chemical Processing 2.
Is Chemical Processing 2 in your tech tree at all?
Does this happen when starting a new game with the mods and settings that you use?

Can you provide a save file to sync to?

You can try to fix it yourself by typing

Code: Select all

/c game.player.force.technologies['chemical-processing-2'].enabled=true
into the chat/lua console while running your map. You have to confirm by sending the command twice, since it will disable achievements.

MrRozdor
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:23 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MrRozdor »

No, there's no chemical processing 2 in my tech tree, even if I create a new game.
I kind of cheated by creating a new mod that fixes it.
Here's the save file:
Attachments
SeaBlock2.5.zip
(5.51 MiB) Downloaded 7 times

valneq
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by valneq »

Your save contains "TechnoStrife Seablock Integration" that is not available on the mod portal. Is that the "new mod" that fixes this issue, or is it something else?

When trying to load it without "TechnoStrife Seablock Integration", I get this error:

Code: Select all

Mods to disable:Failed to load mods: The given sprite rectangle (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=64x64) is outside the actual sprite size (left_top=0x0, right_bottom=32x32).
If this is being used as an icon you may need to define the icon_size property.: __angelsrefining__/graphics/icons/num_1.png

Mods to be disabled:
• reverse-factory (7.0.6)

MrRozdor
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:23 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MrRozdor »

Yeah, it's that new mod. Also I play on 0.18.31, future versions are a bit broken as you can see.

User avatar
micromario
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by micromario »

I was unable to start the mod until I changed line 1045 in angels-functions.lua from

Code: Select all

recipe.order = recipe.order .. (data.raw.fluid[fluid_name] or data.raw.item[fluid_name]).order or "z"
to

Code: Select all

recipe.order = recipe.order .. ((data.raw.fluid[fluid_name] or data.raw.item[fluid_name]).order or "z")

User avatar
lovely_santa
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by lovely_santa »

MrRozdor wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:11 am
I'm unable do research silicon processing:
https://i.imgur.com/wHMBB17.jpg

It requires chemical-processing-2 that is disabled for the player force, however its prototype is enabled.
I didn't find the exact cause of it, but I assume it's one of Angel's mods since it changes bob's mods, or it may be caused by migrations.
Can someone help me?
Seablock is deleting the research, hence why it is hidden. I've made a bug report to trainwreck.
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
Image

alercah
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:19 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by alercah »

I need to verify it in practice, but I believe that you can now violate conservation of energy with hydrogen, since Bob made it burnable, even on tier 1 buildings with no modules:
  • Hydrogen has a fuel value of 33 kJ/unit.
  • You can produce 60 hydrogen per second using 4 electrolysers set to purified water electrolysis.
  • You can produce 100 purified water per second, to fuel them, using a single hydro plant.
  • This collectively costs 1.35 MW.
  • Voiding the oxygen and saline water costs another 62 kW.
  • The energy produced in the hydrogen is 1.98 MW.
  • This nets you 578 kW.
This takes a lot more space than a coal setup, but it's far more pollution-efficient due to the pollution reduction on hydrogen, and it's not dependent on coal supply. It's also much more resource-efficient than solar, and though it probably loses out space-wise too, it's at least in the same order of magnitude.

MakeB
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:24 am
Contact:

Re: Bugs & FAQ

Post by MakeB »

So, i found an interesting bug if you prefer.

i have some excess light oil (yellow one...) and if i try to syngas it, produced syngas isn't compatible with other syngas's...what :shock:
Mods should be up-to-date from modportal.
Attachments
Game 23 Bobs Angels Science tweaked.zip
(9.89 MiB) Downloaded 3 times

Sevenburner
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:25 pm
Contact:

Angels Industries missing Tech Archive 1

Post by Sevenburner »

Hey there,
I play Bob's and Angel's mods in all content they have in there.
As you can guess the title, i've got a little big problem with Tech Archive 1 research, wich i can't find them...

A few pics to show you And the Savegame, where content the config, etc. Maybe it's the mod self, but I can't find any stuff on duckduck, google nor here in forum.

Do you have any suggest what the heck fails?
Thanks !!

~Sevenburner

Post Reply

Return to “Angels Mods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kingarthur