Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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lovely_santa
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

First of all, surprise! The next release of angels is out! I know.. a day early! You can view the changelog ingame or view them all in one place on the release page on github. We keep tomorrow free as a day of fixing pressing bugs and getting it ready for Nilaus to start streaming a fresh playthrough on sunday.
Memoria wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:56 pm
Heya, I just started an Angel/Bob Playthrough (loving it so far!) and found a thing i think is kinda weird: in my crafting menu there's only one way to get grey circuit boards: wood->grey board->grey circuit board. Which is fine and everything. However if I try to craft something that is requiring grey circuit boards as an ingredient (so that the game automatically puts grey circuit boards in my handcrafting queue) the game chooses a different recipe (wood->wooden board->grey circuit board). I cant find that recipe anywhere in my crafting menu, however using FNEI I can find it. My crafting Menu also doesnt show me I can actually craft Items that require grey circuit boards if I dont have grey boards, clicking on something greyed out because of that results in it being crafted using the wooden board recipe tho. Especially the last thing is annoying me a little bit to be honest, hence my question: can i do anything about that (either about the "hidden" wooden board->grey circuit board recipe or about my crafting menu not recognizing it)?

Anyway, great Mods and thank for all the work all of you have put in there!
Try this with the new release, there have been tweaks made to industries, which resolves a lot of issues with components and and bob compatibility. I know we disabled the wooden boards now as well.
yzorr wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:56 pm
Hey Santa,

Something I've noticed as I've racked up hours on AB is that I've gone from seriously ridiculous stores of things to JIT (just-in-time) systems. So, for example, I used to think factorissimo is cheater-level mods; now, I think you need to be really good at AB to abuse it at all, much less properly, given (in/out marshalling overhead, bots do not fly into factories, ...)

But during your first playthrough or three you're going to spend tens of hours ineffectually doing something that's actually the opposite of what you want to do, and during that time, warehouses fill up. I'd advocate a little mercy.
I know you store a lot early game, but progress should be fairly decent if you play alone. If you play in group, you'll store even more, but progression should be even faster. The components did slow it down by a lot, but this has been fixed in the newest release, which reduces the times of handcrafting early game quite drasticaly.
Blood Angel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:40 pm
let's me think about crystals in modules.
clipboard_image_20a184c85b3df9.jpg
this is just to make one crystal for a module. creative. used beckons and speed modules just to see.
I think too much.
0.17 was better.
is it possible to have an option to disable this thing?
Sorry about that... If you look back a couple of pages in this thread, you'll see we had intensive discussions about how to make crystals 'easier'. They are rebalanced a lot (if you don't believe me, check the changelog of bio... :roll: ). This also introduces new ways of breeding biters as well, so you only need puffers to kick start them, similar to uranium and farming.

I answered that specific question: let's first see how these balanced version of the crystals work, if it is too though, we can always make them easier or add the option to disable them completely. We kept them still in, in order to get at least some more feedback about it.
Memoria wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:19 pm
Hello again,

so after playing a few hours and unlocking all the grey-science-pack-sciences I think I have hit a deadlock:
The only thing I can research right now is "Specialist Laboratories" which requires the grey and the red science analyzer. Crafting the grey one is not a problem, for the red science analyzer however I need Red Circuits. Those in turn require Solder which can only be crafted when having Basic Solder Smelting researched, which is locked behind Specialist Laboratories and Red Science Analyzers. Is there anything I can do about that? I'm basically playing full Angel's and full Bob's (see Mod List below), are those two not compatible anymore?

If you need anything more in order to reproduce this or if I'm just being stupid (valid possibility) please let me know.
Thanks for the mods!
Mod List
This has been reported already multiple times, and is fixed in this release! Hope you can enjoy it without any more issues.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by brysamo »

Changed Electronics Board ingredients to use Cupric instead of Ferrous Chloride Solution
Not that I'm complaining but this doesn't appear to have actually been implemented

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

New HDR icons look great, but seem to have over-dimmed the black outline. As a result they can fade into certain backgrounds, depending on which pipes you have selected. You might consider updating your icon functions to give them the stronger outline/background back so they still pop.

Looks fine against dark blue pipes - you can see the difference against the molten metal icons here too
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 8.37.56 PM.png
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Fades away against standard iron
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 8.38.12 PM.png
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Blood Angel »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:16 pm

Sorry about that... If you look back a couple of pages in this thread, you'll see we had intensive discussions about how to make crystals 'easier'. They are rebalanced a lot (if you don't believe me, check the changelog of bio... :roll: ). This also introduces new ways of breeding biters as well, so you only need puffers to kick start them, similar to uranium and farming.

I answered that specific question: let's first see how these balanced version of the crystals work, if it is too though, we can always make them easier or add the option to disable them completely. We kept them still in, in order to get at least some more feedback about it.
thanks a lot, I checked changes logs and also got new release, first of all there are not source of mud. mud needs for nuts. but you can get it only from viscous mud water. as result you will have mud and heavy mud water that should be sink... of course i'm able to make concentrated mud water, next light mud water, thin mud water and saline water to get more mud, but what should I do with saline water? send to sink... I'll build to check

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

brysamo wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:31 am
Changed Electronics Board ingredients to use Cupric instead of Ferrous Chloride Solution
Not that I'm complaining but this doesn't appear to have actually been implemented
It is only for angels circuit boards (when you play with components)
cupric.PNG
cupric.PNG (198.7 KiB) Viewed 1261 times
I think you're not playing with angels components, so I guess you don't see a change...
evandy wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:40 am
New HDR icons look great, but seem to have over-dimmed the black outline. As a result they can fade into certain backgrounds, depending on which pipes you have selected. You might consider updating your icon functions to give them the stronger outline/background back so they still pop.

Looks fine against dark blue pipes - you can see the difference against the molten metal icons here too
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 8.37.56 PM.png

Fades away against standard iron
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 8.38.12 PM.png
That's the base game.. I can't do anything about that... I could add some outline to it manualy, but that will be visible in the crafting menu as well... So I guess I cannot change that as of now... I'll talk to Bilka about it.
Blood Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:23 am
lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:16 pm

Sorry about that... If you look back a couple of pages in this thread, you'll see we had intensive discussions about how to make crystals 'easier'. They are rebalanced a lot (if you don't believe me, check the changelog of bio... :roll: ). This also introduces new ways of breeding biters as well, so you only need puffers to kick start them, similar to uranium and farming.

I answered that specific question: let's first see how these balanced version of the crystals work, if it is too though, we can always make them easier or add the option to disable them completely. We kept them still in, in order to get at least some more feedback about it.
thanks a lot, I checked changes logs and also got new release, first of all there are not source of mud. mud needs for nuts. but you can get it only from viscous mud water. as result you will have mud and heavy mud water that should be sink... of course i'm able to make concentrated mud water, next light mud water, thin mud water and saline water to get more mud, but what should I do with saline water? send to sink... I'll build to check
The main sink is saline water for paper making for circuits and endgame you'll use it even more. Or clarify the saline if you don't know what to do with it anymore, especially if you also need mud for a power setup.
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Mernom »

It seems like angel petrochem is causing issues with SE, as well as any mod that tries to copy the original crude oil icon.
The probem is this code:

Code: Select all

data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icon = nil
data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icon_size = nil
data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icons = angelsmods.functions.create_liquid_fluid_icon(nil, { {069,069,069}, {054,054,054}, {036,036,036} })
which is run during the FIRST data stage.

This is a VERY bad idea to apply this type of change to existing assets so early. Combined with Angel's high spot on the load order due to it's name, as well as having so many mods depend on it... This could potentially break many things.

I suggest moving this:

Code: Select all

require("prototypes.items.petrochem-raws")
to data-updates, or even data-final-fixes, if possible.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

Mernom wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:18 pm
It seems like angel petrochem is causing issues with SE, as well as any mod that tries to copy the original crude oil icon.
The probem is this code:

Code: Select all

data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icon = nil
data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icon_size = nil
data.raw.fluid["crude-oil"].icons = angelsmods.functions.create_liquid_fluid_icon(nil, { {069,069,069}, {054,054,054}, {036,036,036} })
which is run during the FIRST data stage.

This is a VERY bad idea to apply this type of change to existing assets so early. Combined with Angel's high spot on the load order due to it's name, as well as having so many mods depend on it... This could potentially break many things.

I suggest moving this:

Code: Select all

require("prototypes.items.petrochem-raws")
to data-updates, or even data-final-fixes, if possible.
I did change the icon definition, if other mods require the icon definition, they should account for all possibilities and not only the default of vanilla. It must be done in the first stage because otherwise the barreling icon won't be generated correctly in data-updates by the base game.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Mernom »

It should be possible to modify the barrel icon...
But I see where you're coming from.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

After previous discussions on Bio-processing, I thought I'd confirm that Santa's comment that farm-based bio is looking much better (this is in the latest patch, after the tweaks that were made). Not sure how the arboretum-based stuff is (still looks kinda crazy) but the farm-based plastic looks pretty nice here... Just need to wait for the farms to grow enough to seed everything.

Santa, can you check my calculations here? It seems that the process is compost-positive (uh-oh) - I think the compost output from Ethanol gas should be reduced aa touch maybe? Other than that, this is all looking much much better

EDIT: Yeah, it is definitely compost positive... Both the fermentation-base recipes produce compost, and it looks like I'm getting something like 2x the amount the farms consume. I could deal with that if there were a way to void the compost, but I can't find one. Would really appreciate it if we could either void the compost or rebalance the inputs/outputs so that the loop was compost negative.
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Screen Shot 2020-03-22 at 2.02.08 PM.png
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Octaeon »

Is disabling advanced Angel's Smelting intended?

I'm using the latest version of Angel's Industries, with the Tech Overhaul as well as the Components enabled, and while casually browsing the tech tree, I noticed that despite being named "Advanced [resource] Smelting 1", there aren't any further technologies which might expand on them.

I didn't fully play this modpack without the Tech Overhaul before, but from my experience and from watching playthroughs on YT, I know that there are multiple tiers to smelting, with each tier adding something inbetween(the first tier is ingots from ore, then processed ore into ingots, then processed ore into pellets then into ingots, etc) and now... They're all gone???

I'm really confused, is this intentional? Did I make a mistake somehow, flipped some option in the settings I wasn't supposed to? Or is it a bug?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by pezzawinkle »

The further advanced versions should be there unless something has gone horribly wrong, they may not appear as connected in the tech overhaul due to the way the tree has been segmented. I would like to hear back from you (here is fine) if they do indeed not exist.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Xeorm »

Did I miss a mod or option somewhere? Started things up to check out the new updates and the first automation tech is locked behind red science packs. It's doable to get down there, but I don't really want to hand craft 1000+ science just to get there :lol:

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by pezzawinkle »

That is indeed the tech overhaul, which you can turn off. But i do highly recommend the challenge :D

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Xeorm »

pezzawinkle wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:36 am
That is indeed the tech overhaul, which you can turn off. But i do highly recommend the challenge :D
Well yea. Tech overhaul in general. But it seems like an accident to have automation so far down the tree :lol: :evil:

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

Are Bobs Sniper turrets supposed to be locked behind aluminium processing, you need rifle to make sniperturret, which needs aluminium plates.
Normally sniperturret just needs iron,steel,copper and is just behind mil science. Now you need to research flotation (which is now behind oil processing?), aluminium processing, which needs chlorine processing for NaOH and so on.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:05 pm
After previous discussions on Bio-processing, I thought I'd confirm that Santa's comment that farm-based bio is looking much better (this is in the latest patch, after the tweaks that were made). Not sure how the arboretum-based stuff is (still looks kinda crazy) but the farm-based plastic looks pretty nice here... Just need to wait for the farms to grow enough to seed everything.

Santa, can you check my calculations here? It seems that the process is compost-positive (uh-oh) - I think the compost output from Ethanol gas should be reduced aa touch maybe? Other than that, this is all looking much much better

EDIT: Yeah, it is definitely compost positive... Both the fermentation-base recipes produce compost, and it looks like I'm getting something like 2x the amount the farms consume. I could deal with that if there were a way to void the compost, but I can't find one. Would really appreciate it if we could either void the compost or rebalance the inputs/outputs so that the loop was compost negative.

Production Block
Helmod
Lovely to hear this feedback! I'm not sure about the compost.. the extra excess seeds you get will also generate more compost in the end... The sink for this is to convert it into fuel and burn it off really..

For that reason I was already thinking to increase the compost consumption by wood production to use more than a single composter as well... Not sure yet... Or fertilizer could use some more compost as well? There is no sink for compost, as compost is the sink for bio products :lol:
Octaeon wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:40 pm
Is disabling advanced Angel's Smelting intended?

I'm using the latest version of Angel's Industries, with the Tech Overhaul as well as the Components enabled, and while casually browsing the tech tree, I noticed that despite being named "Advanced [resource] Smelting 1", there aren't any further technologies which might expand on them.

I didn't fully play this modpack without the Tech Overhaul before, but from my experience and from watching playthroughs on YT, I know that there are multiple tiers to smelting, with each tier adding something inbetween(the first tier is ingots from ore, then processed ore into ingots, then processed ore into pellets then into ingots, etc) and now... They're all gone???

I'm really confused, is this intentional? Did I make a mistake somehow, flipped some option in the settings I wasn't supposed to? Or is it a bug?
With the overhaul, obsolete prerequisites are removed, hence why it does look disconnected, and I know it's not showing up in your search for some unknown reason so far... :? However, the tier 2 is still there, you should however be able to see the tier 3 smelting recipes in your search, confirming the tier 2's must be in there somewhere, you'll find them when you get there.
Xeorm wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:44 am
pezzawinkle wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:36 am
That is indeed the tech overhaul, which you can turn off. But i do highly recommend the challenge :D
Well yea. Tech overhaul in general. But it seems like an accident to have automation so far down the tree :lol: :evil:
They are indeed a bit too far down the tech tree, as mentioned in multiple places (and now here), this is fixed for the next release. Details about it can be found on the github report.
Termak wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:50 am
Are Bobs Sniper turrets supposed to be locked behind aluminium processing, you need rifle to make sniperturret, which needs aluminium plates.
Normally sniperturret just needs iron,steel,copper and is just behind mil science. Now you need to research flotation (which is now behind oil processing?), aluminium processing, which needs chlorine processing for NaOH and so on.
I am not sure... I might just let it require an easier gun.. got to check it out.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:21 am
evandy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:05 pm
After previous discussions on Bio-processing, I thought I'd confirm that Santa's comment that farm-based bio is looking much better (this is in the latest patch, after the tweaks that were made). Not sure how the arboretum-based stuff is (still looks kinda crazy) but the farm-based plastic looks pretty nice here... Just need to wait for the farms to grow enough to seed everything.

Santa, can you check my calculations here? It seems that the process is compost-positive (uh-oh) - I think the compost output from Ethanol gas should be reduced aa touch maybe? Other than that, this is all looking much much better

EDIT: Yeah, it is definitely compost positive... Both the fermentation-base recipes produce compost, and it looks like I'm getting something like 2x the amount the farms consume. I could deal with that if there were a way to void the compost, but I can't find one. Would really appreciate it if we could either void the compost or rebalance the inputs/outputs so that the loop was compost negative.

Production Block
Helmod
Lovely to hear this feedback! I'm not sure about the compost.. the extra excess seeds you get will also generate more compost in the end... The sink for this is to convert it into fuel and burn it off really..

For that reason I was already thinking to increase the compost consumption by wood production to use more than a single composter as well... Not sure yet... Or fertilizer could use some more compost as well? There is no sink for compost, as compost is the sink for bio products :lol:
I have plenty of farms in that module (30 of them), so it seems like it should be solvable locally without training compost over to my Arboretum? Right now (according to Helmod) it is consuming 2 compost/sec for fertilizer, and producing 4.1/sec. As you note, eventually the overflow seeds need to become compost (which I haven't done yet), so here is a broad suggestion; let me know what you think.
- Fertilizer currently takes 1:1 compost; double this - 2 compost --> 1 fertilizer
(this is an easy way to increase compost consumption generally without touching a zillion farm recipes)
- The Two fermentation recipes that create compost (Ethanol and Acetic Acid) produce 1 compost/cycle. Since you can't produce 0.5 compost, double the length and volume of the other inputs/outputs to reduce compost by 2:1 here too (8 second recipes that take in 200 fermentation base and produce 100 output + 1 compost). This will decrease generation, without changing the net throughput on the other ingredients.

That should be a net reduction in compost by a factor of 4, which should mean it produces approx 50% of the compost it consumes. It can be filled up with the extra cellulose fiber (if you don't want to turn it into charcoal), algae, seeds, or even extra zelosquash themselves.

In addition, all the compost generation recipes are 1:1 (1 zelosquash --> 1 compost, 1 seed --> 1 compost, etc.) Compost's usage seems "bigger" than that to me? Maybe look at the number of inputs to create compost as well. I'm thinking something like
- Farm products (zelosquash/nilaubergene/etc.) are 2:1 product:compost
- cellulose fiber is 5:1 fiber:compost
- Algae are 10:1 (because they are 2 algae : 1 fiber)
- Seeds are 20:1
- Gardens&Wood are 1:1

I probably forgot something in that list, but you get the gist.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:09 pm
...

I have plenty of farms in that module (30 of them), so it seems like it should be solvable locally without training compost over to my Arboretum? Right now (according to Helmod) it is consuming 2 compost/sec for fertilizer, and producing 4.1/sec. As you note, eventually the overflow seeds need to become compost (which I haven't done yet), so here is a broad suggestion; let me know what you think.
- Fertilizer currently takes 1:1 compost; double this - 2 compost --> 1 fertilizer
(this is an easy way to increase compost consumption generally without touching a zillion farm recipes)
- The Two fermentation recipes that create compost (Ethanol and Acetic Acid) produce 1 compost/cycle. Since you can't produce 0.5 compost, double the length and volume of the other inputs/outputs to reduce compost by 2:1 here too (8 second recipes that take in 200 fermentation base and produce 100 output + 1 compost). This will decrease generation, without changing the net throughput on the other ingredients.

That should be a net reduction in compost by a factor of 4, which should mean it produces approx 50% of the compost it consumes. It can be filled up with the extra cellulose fiber (if you don't want to turn it into charcoal), algae, seeds, or even extra zelosquash themselves.

In addition, all the compost generation recipes are 1:1 (1 zelosquash --> 1 compost, 1 seed --> 1 compost, etc.) Compost's usage seems "bigger" than that to me? Maybe look at the number of inputs to create compost as well. I'm thinking something like
- Farm products (zelosquash/nilaubergene/etc.) are 2:1 product:compost
- cellulose fiber is 5:1 fiber:compost
- Algae are 10:1 (because they are 2 algae : 1 fiber)
- Seeds are 20:1
- Gardens&Wood are 1:1

I probably forgot something in that list, but you get the gist.
I implemented this more or less for the next release of bioprocessing. The ratios are a bit different, but I made compost less obtainable as it must still act as a sink, but still fuel positive for fuel production. The details about this can be found here on github.
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:20 pm
I implemented this more or less for the next release of bioprocessing. The ratios are a bit different, but I made compost less obtainable as it must still act as a sink, but still fuel positive for fuel production. The details about this can be found here on github.
Sounds awesome.

Speaking of awesome, you posted a teaser of the new Deuterium processing. I thought I'd share a sub-factory to produce enough Deuterium for ... 0.5 deuterium cells per second. (Technically I need to upgrade to lv4 steam crackers, but I haven't made them yet).
Screen Shot 2020-03-25 at 9.35.50 PM.png
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The most interesting part is a really subtle detail you need to zoom in to see; if you just connect it all up there is MASSIVE ringing and fluid imbalances. Separating the Hydrogen Sulfide / Enriched Sulfide loops (along with the Purified Water to Steam loops) in the crackers settles things down very nicely. There are a couple of top-off valves into the 1x1 storage tanks to seed each loop, and give enough headroom for fluid pulses, without allowing the entire main system to ring. Once pressurized, there should be no flow into these sub-loops, as they are both 100% return.

I am excited for the new fuel cell processing changes and want to be ready to make (& use) them... gotta get on creating Lv4 circuits so I can make all the Deuterium equipment.

PS: If Santa decides to make these net-positive-output loops I'm gonna cry.
Screen Shot 2020-03-25 at 9.35.34 PM.png
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:37 am
lovely_santa wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:20 pm
I implemented this more or less for the next release of bioprocessing. The ratios are a bit different, but I made compost less obtainable as it must still act as a sink, but still fuel positive for fuel production. The details about this can be found here on github.
Sounds awesome.

Speaking of awesome, you posted a teaser of the new Deuterium processing. I thought I'd share a sub-factory to produce enough Deuterium for ... 0.5 deuterium cells per second. (Technically I need to upgrade to lv4 steam crackers, but I haven't made them yet).
Screen Shot 2020-03-25 at 9.35.50 PM.png

The most interesting part is a really subtle detail you need to zoom in to see; if you just connect it all up there is MASSIVE ringing and fluid imbalances. Separating the Hydrogen Sulfide / Enriched Sulfide loops (along with the Purified Water to Steam loops) in the crackers settles things down very nicely. There are a couple of top-off valves into the 1x1 storage tanks to seed each loop, and give enough headroom for fluid pulses, without allowing the entire main system to ring. Once pressurized, there should be no flow into these sub-loops, as they are both 100% return.

I am excited for the new fuel cell processing changes and want to be ready to make (& use) them... gotta get on creating Lv4 circuits so I can make all the Deuterium equipment.

PS: If Santa decides to make these net-positive-output loops I'm gonna cry.
Screen Shot 2020-03-25 at 9.35.34 PM.png
Seems like a lovely design ^_^ I am not planning on making it positive, just balanced, like it is now. The ringing is most likely caused from all the buildings finishing at the same time, which can create some interesting design challenges (I'm liking it) ^_^ And I love your build!

First bugfixes are in order, once that's all done, I am planning on implementing the new fuel cell loop!
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
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