KS Power

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ZombieMooose
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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by ZombieMooose » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:50 am

I'm sorry but I can't seem to get the diesel generator working. Is it because the diesel fuel isn't heated? How do I heat it then?

It just slowly drains diesel fuel with no power output.

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Klonan
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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Klonan » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:54 am

diongham wrote:I'm sorry but I can't seem to get the diesel generator working. Is it because the diesel fuel isn't heated? How do I heat it then?

It just slowly drains diesel fuel with no power output.
How are you creating the diesel fuel?

Do you have some other mod?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by ZombieMooose » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:46 pm

Klonan wrote:
diongham wrote:I'm sorry but I can't seem to get the diesel generator working. Is it because the diesel fuel isn't heated? How do I heat it then?

It just slowly drains diesel fuel with no power output.
How are you creating the diesel fuel?

Do you have some other mod?
I figured it out; when it comes directly it off a creative mode fluid creator pump thing it is 0° and if I pump methane and fluid oil into a chemical plant it's 25°.

I suspect this may be a creative mode problem.

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Xerus » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:16 pm

yep, had the same problem with testing in creative mode, maybe write that into your front post and also edit it because you can't use other oils anymore.
Please add tooltips to the items, the wind turbine is not even showing an estimate power output to me, ONLY its health.

The Burner Generator only drops a Steam Boiler. Is this behaviour intended?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by elkillo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:09 am

can confirm the burner gen gives a boiler on pickup

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Reika
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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Reika » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:48 pm

In 0.16 (I updated it for personal use) this throws an error when trying to set the "electric_output_flow_limit" field of the turbine LuaEntity. Interestingly, the API documentation hints that the field should be writable for entities of type electric-energy-interface, which the turbine is. Has the API changed (and was this change intended)?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Bilka » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:10 pm

Reika wrote:In 0.16 (I updated it for personal use) this throws an error when trying to set the "electric_output_flow_limit" field of the turbine LuaEntity. Interestingly, the API documentation hints that the field should be writable for entities of type electric-energy-interface, which the turbine is. Has the API changed (and was this change intended)?
https://forums.factorio.com/54590
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Trainwreck » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:37 am

There's a suggestion over in the sea block thread to add the render_no_power_icon flag to the wind turbine prototype. This prevents the red no power icon flashing when electrical consumption exceeds supply. It's not really a sea block specific issue, what do you think about adding this change to ks_power?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Trainwreck » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:54 am

I noticed KS Power 0.2.1 has added the render_no_power_icon flag. Unfortunately, it was not added inside the energy_source block, so it's not having any effect.
Here's a diff. It just moves the render_no_power_icon line up inside the energy_source block.

Code: Select all

diff -ur KS_Power_0.2.1.orig/prototypes/turbine.lua KS_Power_0.2.1/prototypes/turbine.lua
--- KS_Power_0.2.1.orig/prototypes/turbine.lua	2018-03-12 18:02:32.000000000 +1100
+++ KS_Power_0.2.1/prototypes/turbine.lua	2018-03-14 19:38:47.760658636 +1100
@@ -44,7 +44,8 @@
       buffer_capacity = "1kJ",
       usage_priority = "primary-output",
       input_flow_limit = "0kW",
-      output_flow_limit = "30kW"
+      output_flow_limit = "30kW",
+      render_no_power_icon = false
     },
     energy_production = "0kW",
     energy_usage = "0kW",
@@ -73,7 +74,6 @@
       },
       max_sounds_per_type = 5
     },
-    render_no_power_icon = false
   },
 
-})
\ No newline at end of file
+})

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Klonan
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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Klonan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:04 pm

Trainwreck wrote:I noticed KS Power 0.2.1 has added the render_no_power_icon flag. Unfortunately, it was not added inside the energy_source block, so it's not having any effect.
Here's a diff. It just moves the render_no_power_icon line up inside the energy_source block.

Code: Select all

diff -ur KS_Power_0.2.1.orig/prototypes/turbine.lua KS_Power_0.2.1/prototypes/turbine.lua
--- KS_Power_0.2.1.orig/prototypes/turbine.lua	2018-03-12 18:02:32.000000000 +1100
+++ KS_Power_0.2.1/prototypes/turbine.lua	2018-03-14 19:38:47.760658636 +1100
@@ -44,7 +44,8 @@
       buffer_capacity = "1kJ",
       usage_priority = "primary-output",
       input_flow_limit = "0kW",
-      output_flow_limit = "30kW"
+      output_flow_limit = "30kW",
+      render_no_power_icon = false
     },
     energy_production = "0kW",
     energy_usage = "0kW",
@@ -73,7 +74,6 @@
       },
       max_sounds_per_type = 5
     },
-    render_no_power_icon = false
   },
 
-})
\ No newline at end of file
+})
Okay fixed, thanks for the heads up

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by __Zero__ » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:03 pm

I really like your mod. However there seems to be a bug in the emissions of the diesel generator. It creates an enormous cloud that attracted the worst attacks in factorio that I have ever seen.
Furthermore if I remember correctly in older versions one oil boiler could supply 4 steam engines because they consumed less steam due to the higher temperature. Now they consume 30 units of steam per engine although the steam has 315 °C, so that one boiler can only supply two steam engines?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by fiery_salmon » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:05 am

I opened issues on https://github.com/Klonan/KS_Power/issues - I am not sure, maybe it was mistake to open them there but if github issue tracker is ignored then maybe you can add readme with an info where you want people to report bugs and disable isssue tracker on github?

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by Klonan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:14 am

fiery_salmon wrote:I opened issues on https://github.com/Klonan/KS_Power/issues - I am not sure, maybe it was mistake to open them there but if github issue tracker is ignored then maybe you can add readme with an info where you want people to report bugs and disable isssue tracker on github?
I get to things when I have time
__Zero__ wrote:I really like your mod. However there seems to be a bug in the emissions of the diesel generator. It creates an enormous cloud that attracted the worst attacks in factorio that I have ever seen.
Furthermore if I remember correctly in older versions one oil boiler could supply 4 steam engines because they consumed less steam due to the higher temperature. Now they consume 30 units of steam per engine although the steam has 315 °C, so that one boiler can only supply two steam engines?
I set pollution to like '3', which seemed so reasonably small...

So now it is 3/1000, let me know if it seems more balanced :)

Also with oil boiler, I changed it so it outputs 90 165 degree steam for all recipes, so it is less wonky,
So each oil boiler can support 3 steam engines

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Re: [MOD 0.15] KS Power

Post by __Zero__ » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:14 am

Perfect, thank you! I will try out the pollution of the diesel generator as soon as i can and report back.

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Re: KS Power

Post by __Zero__ » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:21 pm

I tried the new version of the mod over the weekend.
The 3 steam engines per oil boiler work fine. Oil boilers create little pollution compared to coal burners. While they should be much cleaner than coal as oil and gas create less pollution while burning I am not sure wheather it is balacend this way.
The Diesel generators work much better too. I cant check the exact pollution numbers as they are not displayed in the generator. If I use the debug (F5) and pollution map it seemed much better than before and does no longer create a wasteland.
There also seems to be a change in the fuel energy values because the oil burner now uses 1,2 light oil and 1,8 heavy oil. This is maybe inconsistant to the solid fuel production where one solid fuel needs 10 light oil or 20 heavy oil. If you plan to rebalance fuel energy values in the game or in the mod maybe it should be made consistant.

Thank you for your gread mod and for the quick response and patch. :)

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Re: KS Power

Post by CaptainFord » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:02 pm

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet about diesel generators, so I'd like to point it out.

The efficiency of diesel generators is inversely proportional to their output rate. That is to say, charging 40 accumulators to 200 MJ at the max output rate of 4MW uses 50 units of diesel fuel, for 4 MJ per unit of fuel. But charging only one accumulator to 5MJ at an output rate of 300kW uses about 0.09359 units of diesel fuel, giving me 53.425MJ per unit of fuel.

I said inversely proportional because by testing different loads, it became apparent that (MJ per unit of fuel) * (kW of the load) comes out to a very similar value for any variety of load. In this case:

4MJ * 4000kW = 16000
53.425MJ * 300kW = 16027

Is this a known phenomenon? I couldn't find any other mention of it.

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Re: KS Power

Post by Klonan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:18 pm

CaptainFord wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention this yet about diesel generators, so I'd like to point it out.

The efficiency of diesel generators is inversely proportional to their output rate. That is to say, charging 40 accumulators to 200 MJ at the max output rate of 4MW uses 50 units of diesel fuel, for 4 MJ per unit of fuel. But charging only one accumulator to 5MJ at an output rate of 300kW uses about 0.09359 units of diesel fuel, giving me 53.425MJ per unit of fuel.

I said inversely proportional because by testing different loads, it became apparent that (MJ per unit of fuel) * (kW of the load) comes out to a very similar value for any variety of load. In this case:

4MJ * 4000kW = 16000
53.425MJ * 300kW = 16027

Is this a known phenomenon? I couldn't find any other mention of it.
Hmm, it might be a floating point imprecision, do you have tests with any other number of accumulators?

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Re: KS Power

Post by CaptainFord » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Klonan wrote:Hmm, it might be a floating point imprecision, do you have tests with any other number of accumulators?
Yes, that was just a simple example. I tried four, six, combinations of the bob's mods accumulators, and using a variety of assemblers, electrolyzers, barreling pumps etc. to make sure it wasn't caused by accumulators specifically. The relationship appears to hold at any power draw, and I was able to use it to predict how many buildings would completely drain a barrel of fuel. Accumulators are just nice and simple to work with to demonstrate the math since they have no drain.

I discovered this property because I was trying to experimentally determine the energy per unit of fuel while playing Seablock, and after testing with one hi-cap accumulator and observing the fuel consumption, I wanted more data to nail it down more precisely. My first couple experiments had drained So I calculated it would take about 7 more to almost completely drain the remaining fuel (my math wasn't off), and then after adding seven, it didn't even charge them 1/10 of the way to full. That is to say, despite it having enough fuel to charge one accumulator seven times, when trying to charge 7 at once, it didn't produce enough power to charge even one. So I knew something was up.

Interestingly enough, though, while working in Seablock I was getting a constant of about 5800 for the Diesel generator instead of 16000.

I also got a constant of about 1880 for Liquid fuel in the Oil burning generator 2 from Bob's mods, and the first-level Oil burning generator was half that (990). The numbers don't cleanly come out to the same number as well as the first example, but the inverse relationship between energy production and efficiency is clear and obvious.

And then after doing my testing in Seablock, I removed all other mods but KS Power, started a new game, and repeated the test with accumulators to start working on figuring out what other mod could be causing it, but I didn't need to do any more testing since it reproduced with KS Power alone. I would guess it is endemic to the steam engine prototype somehow.
Klonan wrote:Hmm, it might be a floating point imprecision
Not sure what you mean exactly. Let me send you my spreadsheet.
Attachments
KSPower Testing 0.00 Test is good.zip
The save I replicated my testing in
(4.22 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
KS Power.ods
(24.8 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

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Re: KS Power

Post by Splicer9 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:04 am

I did a quick test after you mentioned this and I got this:
1 Diesel Gen to 1 Accu (10MJ) @ 300KW output used .3 fuel then I did 2 Accus (20MJ) and it used .8 fuel then I tried a 'Bio Industries Accumulator' with 200MJ capacity @ 4MW output (max) and used a whole barrel (50 units). I know not as precise as what you did but it would seem the higher the demand on the generators, the less efficient?

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Re: KS Power

Post by CaptainFord » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:27 pm

Splicer9 wrote:I did a quick test after you mentioned this and I got this:
1 Diesel Gen to 1 Accu (10MJ) @ 300KW output used .3 fuel then I did 2 Accus (20MJ) and it used .8 fuel then I tried a 'Bio Industries Accumulator' with 200MJ capacity @ 4MW output (max) and used a whole barrel (50 units). I know not as precise as what you did but it would seem the higher the demand on the generators, the less efficient?
Yep. And your numbers actually match mine to a high degree, too.

10 MJ / 0.3 fuel * 300 kW = 10000
20 MJ / 0.8 fuel * 600 kW = 15000
200 MJ / 50 fuel * 4000 kW = 16000

And rounding error means the first two fuel values could be up to 0.1 lower.

10 MJ / 0.2 fuel * 300 kW = 15000
20 MJ / 0.7 fuel * 600 kW = 17143
200 MJ / 50 fuel * 4000 kW = 16000

I think the first value is closer to 0.2 and the second is closer to 0.8. So using those values the fuel efficiencies would be:

10 MJ / 0.2 fuel = 50 MJ / fuel
20 MJ / 0.8 fuel = 25 MJ / fuel
200 MJ / 50 fuel = 4 MJ / fuel

It just seems like there must be something in the code of the steam generator that's causing this.

Edit: The next line of experimentation for me would be to check out how these numbers vary with the temperature of the fuel and see if the effect goes away completely at, say, 165 degrees, since in my searching I noticed a few posts talking about getting zero output in relation to the temperature of the input.

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