Factorio Forums

TL;DR

Add a productivity research for Fish Breeding.

What?

At an exponential cost of Automation, Logistics, Chemical, Production, Utility, Space, and Agriculture science, increase the productivity of the Fish Breeding recipe by 4%.

Why?

Fish Breeding was doubtless implemented because Space science could no longer be used to make fish, but unless you're doing some zany challenge run where you don't use shields, the only real use for it is making A La Creme easier. Granted, it makes it significantly easier, but it's still it's own little closed-off ecosystem.

I mean I guess if you wanted to make an army of 2000 spidertrons and undo all the devs' hard work in FFF#425 then you can do that but for those of us that don't have a 9800X3D it's hard to find a use case as-is.

To address the elephant in the room, yes, this would allow for a self-sustaining loop, which would in turn make it possible to farm endless Legendary fish. However, I feel this implements the concept in a way compatible with the existing game logic for such methodology.

"What existing game logic?" I hear you cry. Well, it is true that you can't get an infinite supply of iron by tossing the same few iron plates back and forth. However, for the low-low price of 5 540 977 Metallurgic science (and Automation, Logistics, Chemical, and Production), and/or 5 540 977 Electromagnetic science (and Automation, Logistics, Chemical, and Production (and the free sulfuric acid on Vulcanus)), you can already achieve 100% Legendary output of most materials with a steady supply of Common-grade inputs, and the main concern with productivity on Fish Breeding isn't so much making unlimited fish, but unlimited Legendary fish.

This is why Productivity modules are disabled for the recipe. They would make it absolutely trivial to produce infinite fresh fish with very little game progression. All you would need is two Biochambers and Productivity module 2's or Uncommon-grade Productivity module 1's. Yes, it's that easy.
Fish Breeding productivity applies to the full output, not just the products over the catalyst; this is probably because they're considered fresh/new products and have their spoilage% reset, whereas for something like Kovarex, only the +1 u235 is considered "new".
This means that only +66.7% productivity (plus a little more to keep the Biochambers fed with nutrients) is needed for an infinite loop. Thus we have the breakpoint. Anything higher than that is a loop.
Biochambers have a natural +50% productivity, so that only leaves +16.7% to make with modules, and 4 Prod1's are +16%...

So my suggestion is to mirror the existing possibility.
Max productivity on an Assembler making Low Density Structure (+200% Low Density Structure productivity research, +4*25% Legendary Productivity 3 = +300%) -> Recycler with quality modules -> Item quality sorter -> back to the Assembler again
Max productivity on a Biochamber making Fish, with heavy Fish Breeding productivity research investment -> sorter targeting the first Biochamber, a second Biochamber making Nutrients from Fish (no productivity research or modules needed), and any spare Fish as the loop output.
If the extra productivity bonus is only on the breeding part and not the nutrients part, the new magic number for productivity is +77.7%. This research would make it possible to create the loop without trivializing it, because you would need research level 7 to just barely break even, give or take Biochamber feeding costs, and that would be a total of 254 000 Agricultural science. 510 000 to actually start getting anywhere with it, and the cost only skyrockets from there. At that point, the engineer has obviously proven their ability to handle spoiling goods and either has made a megabase on Gleba, has a successful interplanetary shipping setup, or is agonizingly patient. 72 hour afk session at 60 SPM, anyone?
At that point, having a new paradigm become available is justifiable imo.

So what recipes does unlimited Legendary fish affect?

• Legendary Spidertrons are easier to make, but that's only a small part of the cost...
• Legendary Nutrients
• (which is used in) Legendary Pentapod Egg
• (or else turns into) Legendary Spoilage
• (which can be made into) Legendary Carbon

There are several things you can do with Legendary Nutrients.

• They take longer to spoil as fuel
• Legendary Biochamber, combined with other Legendary ingredients
• Legendary Pentapod Eggs are also used in the Biochamber, and also in Agricultural science, but Legendary Bioflux is only slightly affected, so only part of the recipe is easier

Legendary Pentapod Eggs affects the following:

• Legendary Biochamber is easier to make, only needing Legendary Iron Plates, Electronic Circuits, and Landfill (and the Nutrients)
• Legendary Agricultural science is easier, but Legendary Bioflux is only mildly helped out here

Legendary Spoilage. Now that's a funny turn of phrase...

• Legendary Efficiency Module 3, if you can already make Legendary Efficiency Module 2's, and Advanced Circuits and Processing Units
• Legendary Agricultural Tower, similar to the Legendary Biochamber
• Legendary Sulfur, if you have Legendary Bioflux figured out, which like I said this barely affects
• Legendary Carbon

Legendary Carbon affects the following:

• Legendary Carbon Fiber, but considering how difficult Legendary Yumako Mash is to make, this is the easy part.
• Legendary Coal Synthesis, if you can get Legendary Sulfur
• Legendary Space science doesn't count because Space science is already relatively easy to produce in massive quantities and would really just be a flex.
• Legendary Tungsten Carbide doesn't count either because producing sufficient Legendary Tungsten Ore is only possible with Quality Recyclers which could be used to produce Legendary Carbon at about the same rate anyways...

Legendary Coal does have some interesting downstream effects, but like I said, it requires Legendary Sulfur; which could be made from Legendary Bioflux, and Legendary Bioflux isn't made much easier. The entire rest of the production chain for it is almost unaffected; making Legendary machines for faster processing, and not having to worry about Nutrient income if you ship your fish from Nauvis, is the extent of it.

TL;DR again

I agree that productivity modules on Fish Breeding would be very unbalanced for how little progression is required, but it doesn't entirely overturn the spoilage mechanic, or make Yumako/Jellynut farming obsolete, so putting it behind high science progression similar to what already exists in-game feels like an intriguing high-priced investment.

im so tired of saying the word legendary

You missed one thing: A net positive nutrient loop using fish would allow local nutrient production on Nauvis. And right now, that’s deliberately impossible. Before release, fish breeding was done with tree seeds, allowing people to farm nutrients on Nauvis. But that was removed, and biter eggs/imported biolflux became the only nutrient source. It’s safe to say that the devs want it to stay this way.
But yes, in case you were wondering, the fish nutrients recipe is indeed just a leftover from that time, which is why it feels a little odd and disconnected.

Anything involving (reasonably balanced) production loops will get you a +1 from me.

embermctillhawk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 1:30 am At that point, the engineer has obviously proven their ability [...], having a new paradigm become available is justifiable imo.

I think this is generally true as a game design rule. Allowing infinite researches to go past the tipping points where new, simplified factory structures become viable is much more interesting than just have them allow existing factories to work more efficiently.

CyberCider wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 12:08 pm You missed one thing: A net positive nutrient loop using fish would allow local nutrient production on Nauvis.

When I first saw the fish breeding tech, I was sure that was the entire point, actually. It would have been consistent with the "Gleba makes your base on Nauvis better" philosophy that biolabs suggest. If local nutrient production was possible on Nauvis, biochambers could be used there as almost drop-in replacements for chemical plants for some recipes, right? That doesn't seem outlandish, since electromagnetic plants already fill a similar role.

xylo wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:42 pm When I first saw the fish breeding tech, I was sure that was the entire point, actually. It would have been consistent with the "Gleba makes your base on Nauvis better" philosophy that biolabs suggest. If local nutrient production was possible on Nauvis, biochambers could be used there as almost drop-in replacements for chemical plants for some recipes, right? That doesn't seem outlandish, since electromagnetic plants already fill a similar role.

Like I said, that was the entire point, until the devs deliberately changed it in the week before release. Besides, biochambers can already be used on Nauvis no problem. You already have to ship calcite for foundries, why not also bioflux for biochambers? Rockets from Gleba are renewable, and bioflux has almost the longest spoil time in the game. It’s easy. Personally, I also use biochambers on Vulcanus, not just Nauvis.
Also, fun fact, you actually get a lot more nutrients per bioflux if you first feed it to a biter spawner and then turn the eggs into nutrients. And I really mean a lot more. I think it’s a very fun risk/reward mechanic, I’m looking forward to experimenting with it myself.

CyberCider wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 12:08 pm You missed one thing: A net positive nutrient loop using fish would allow local nutrient production on Nauvis. And right now, that’s deliberately impossible. Before release, fish breeding was done with tree seeds, allowing people to farm nutrients on Nauvis. But that was removed, and biter eggs/imported biolflux became the only nutrient source. It’s safe to say that the devs want it to stay this way.
But yes, in case you were wondering, the fish nutrients recipe is indeed just a leftover from that time, which is why it feels a little odd and disconnected.

Actually, I didn't miss that. I'm aware that's deliberately impossible. That is the discussion du jour, that net-positive nutrients on Nauvis is something which shouldn't be possible at the start, but maybe it could be permissible with extreme gameplay progression that demonstrates mastery of the game's agricultural systems.