Factorio Forums

TL;DR

Add a recipe for Grenades that uses carbon instead of coal

Why?

Currently on Gleba it is impossible to craft military science packs because you don't have direct access to coal.
By making grenades craftable from carbon you could make this possible.

1) There is a recipe to make coal from carbon and sulfur. It’s unlocked together with rocket turret tech, so maybe that’s why you missed it.
2) Why would you make military science on Gleba ? At first I thought you just wanted to use grenades to deal with pentapods, but this just confused me.
3) This specific recipe would be impossible to add to the game, because grenades can be recycled. So they cannot have two different recipes.

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:33 pm 2) Why would you make military science on Gleba ? At first I thought you just wanted to use grenades to deal with pentapods, but this just confused me.

Minimising the distance between the Gleba science pack production and the lab would minimise spoilage I guess ? So the more science can be produced with only local means the better if one wants to relocate their research labs in Gleba.

Koub wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:22 pm

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:33 pm 2) Why would you make military science on Gleba ? At first I thought you just wanted to use grenades to deal with pentapods, but this just confused me.

Minimising the distance between the Gleba science pack production and the lab would minimise spoilage I guess ? So the more science can be produced with only local means the better if one wants to relocate their research labs in Gleba.

I don’t think devs would add a new recipe just for a self imposed challenge playstyle like that. If someone chose to play that way, then they will just have to suck up the cost of 1 rocket of military science from Nauvis. I checked btw, the rocket turret tech cost 1k science, so exactly 1 rocket. Just another part of the challenge, I guess.

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 6:56 pm

Koub wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:22 pm

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:33 pm Why would you make military science on Gleba

Minimising the distance between the Gleba science pack production and the lab would minimise spoilage I guess ? So the more science can be produced with only local means the better if one wants to relocate their research labs in Gleba.

I don’t think devs would add a new recipe just for a self imposed challenge playstyle like that.

I don't think it's a self-imposed challenge, they're trying to make it easier to manage for themselves, because spoilage is so different from everything else in the game. (Even compared to the other planets.)

But if coal can be made locally on Gleba already, then maybe the order of the tech could be tweaked? Is sulfur difficult to get on Gleba? (I tried the any-planet-start mod, and ran far, faaaaarrr away from Gleba, and had fun on Vulcanus and Fulgora, before going back to my train-world Nauvis game. )

AileTheAlien wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:07 pmIs sulfur difficult to get on Gleba?

Nope, there's a bio-sulfur recipe for the biochamber. You unlock the rocket turret there, so they intentionally made it easy to produce a lot of explosives.

Yah was going to agree, that would be nice to have a way to make military tech from carbon.
So, currently you can, and it is only carbon, sulfur and water. So its possible already

AileTheAlien wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:07 pm

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 6:56 pm But if coal can be made locally on Gleba already, then maybe the order of the tech could be tweaked?

agreed on this, if would be better if it is after space science, where you will have access to carbon from asteroids anyways.
Not moving the rocket turret research, just the coal syntheses. And then rocket turret tech, would be just rocket turret.

I don't really see how that's an issue, I found it pretty cool how this
(needing to import military science in order to unlock making military science)
is a hint to the player that they can send science to other planets !
(Especially if Gleba is their first planet after Nauvis.)

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:33 pm [...]
3) This specific recipe would be impossible to add to the game, because grenades can be recycled. So they cannot have two different recipes.

So does copper cable, and it can be recycled just fine into plates. That's why there's an «alternative recipes» category.

P.S.: Also, yeah, I'm surprised at the «self-imposed challenge» comment, to me it's the path of least resistance ! (At least until I guess...)

BlueTemplar wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:26 pm is a hint to the player that they can send science to other planets !

I don't think it is a hint to that. The moment one steps on Vulcanos or Fulgora they will ship science back.

(needing to import military science in order to unlock making military science)

that is not quite right, we already know how to make military long before going out to space.

It is much more about getting coal from carbon.
The only reason I can see for it to be locked behind Gleba, is to reinforce that Fulgora should not have coal, which I would say is unnecessary. One can send coal from Nauvis anyways, sending it from a ship that collects asteroid is much cooler.

Both are currently viable options already, it is just an order of when it is unlocked.

BlueTemplar wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:26 pm is a hint to the player that they can send science to other planets !

I don't think it is a hint to that. The moment one steps on Vulcanos or Fulgora they will ship science back.

(As I mentioned, Gleba might be their first planet.)
I mean shipping science from Nauvis (or other planets if already unlocked, to planets other than Nauvis).

Which is perhaps more unique to Gleba !
(Well, I guess there's also shipping Space Science from Nauvis to Vulcanus / Fulgora, as well as some later multi-planet techs before Aquilo...)

(needing to import military science in order to unlock making military science)

that is not quite right, we already know how to make military long before going out to space.

Well, obviously, I meant making military science on Gleba, how would you ship science if you couldn't make it ??

----

(As a reminder, you need coal for missile-rockets, .)

BlueTemplar wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:26 pm

CyberCider wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:33 pm [...]
3) This specific recipe would be impossible to add to the game, because grenades can be recycled. So they cannot have two different recipes.

So does copper cable, and it can be recycled just fine into plates. That's why there's an «alternative recipes» category.

Fine, if you insist, I’ll be specific
They can’t have two different recipes, which both consist of ingredients that a recycler is capable of outputting. Are you happy now?
And making Nauvis sciences on Gleba isn’t a “path of least resistance”, it is something that’s commonly known as a “trap”.

Wait, is it how that works ? Doesn't sound likely with mods in mind.
Are you sure it's not outputting the default recipe ingredients, whatever the alternate recipes are ?

And if it's a 'trap', then it's one that the player is guided towards (those aren't exclusive), and not one that is as problematic as that makes it sound like :
At that point you have enough bots that you can just copy-paste, and all the ingredients for RGB have already been made in the process of getting bots + silo. (And those for M are nice to add, on a planet with enemies.)
And the goal here is to get the cheapest Gleba sciences
(which might involve also importing space science, still less of a chore than worrying about spoiling Gleba science ?),
not to make a self-sufficient megabase.

BlueTemplar wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:49 pm Wait, is it how that works ? Doesn't sound likely with mods in mind.
Are you sure it's not outputting the default recipe ingredients, whatever the alternate recipes are ?

And if it's a 'trap', then it's one that the player is guided towards (those aren't exclusive), and not one that is as problematic as that makes it sound like :
At that point you have enough bots that you can just copy-paste, and all the ingredients for RGB have already been made in the process of getting bots + silo. (And those for M are nice to add, on a planet with enemies.)
And the goal here is to get the cheapest Gleba sciences
(which might involve also importing space science, still less of a chore than worrying about spoiling Gleba science ?),
not to make a self-sufficient megabase.

I mean, it’s just a waste of time. You only need 2k science packs (actually 1k of purple and yellow) to unlock biolabs, and make Nauvis labs vastly more efficient. Why would you build essentially a whole other base, instead of launching at most five-ish rockets?

Again, the other «whole base» is already built, you only need to add some assemblers for the RGB(M) sciences and the labs.

to unlock biolabs, and make Nauvis labs vastly more efficient

Because at that point you might not know that's how this works yet ? Gleba science unlocking a Nauvis-only lab is far from obvious.

(There also might be the question of at which point that extra biolab efficiency is worth it to deal with the hassle of spoiling Gleba science. And depending on your planet order, your main science production might not be on Nauvis anyway, where you have to deal with pollution.)

But most importantly, there also might be a more pressing issue of finding a better defense for your treefarms against strafers, so, missile turrets first. Especially since for your first time around you will probably want to leave Gleba to try the mechanic out on Nauvis in person.

I wouldn't push this as far as which planet should build which science.

I would just focus on the first point: Granade from carbon, which is already possible.
But, with the coal syntheses locked on Gleba for whatever reason.

Coal syntheses doesn't even use any Gleba ingredients.
Make much more sense to have the coal synthesis been just after space science. It is just more natural, you found your first carbon in space, and learn how to process such ores, and should also learn on the coal syntheses.

As like the other cases, this is a tech that is placed further down for no real reason besides delaying that option, it is just arbitrary, it's not really its natural position in terms of progression. But this one is a little more curious as it by itself doesn't really break any "challenge". It is not like you can't get coal prior to it.

But that is arguable dependent on one point of view. Which will vary a lot.

Sworn wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:54 pmAs like the other cases, this is a tech that is placed further down for no real reason besides delaying that option, it is just arbitrary, it's not really its natural position in terms of progression. But this one is a little more curious as it by itself doesn't really break any "challenge". It is not like you can't get coal prior to it.

It's placed there because you need a way to make coal locally, and presumably they didn't want to add coal patches. Or rather re-add them, since they used to have all the basic resource patches, but that played really badly.

Coal syntheses doesn't even use any Gleba ingredients.

Only if you don't consider carbon and sulfur as «Gleba ingredients» because they're not exclusive to it.
But then isn't a «-exclusive ingredient» either and is unlocked there.

Ok so I now see that there is a recipe for crafting coal, but it requiring military science causes a chicken egg problem.
I wanted to set up a full base on Gleba just for trying (also because I crash landed my spaceship [I know I can just reload but as the devs made it possible to just rebuild from Gleba {and probably any planet} I wanted to go for it], so I rebuilt all the science and stuff, but realized that you can't make military science).

I think an elegant solution would be to e. g. rename Carbon Fiber, to Carbon Processing and have it unlock both coal and carbon fiber.