Factorio Forums

The burner inserter makes everything harder, so it should be placed at the end rather than the start, since people are worse at the start but better at the end. You don't put the boss at the start and the tiny rat at the end.

To be placed at the end it should be better than electric inserters, not worse.
If we allow fuel type to buff it it could potentially become better.

Base stack size and research bonus = that of a stack inserter.

Speed:
Wood: Same speed as today
Coal: Yellow inserter
Solid: Stack inserter
Rocket: Slightly faster than stack inserter.
Nuclear: Slightly faster than stack inserter +2 carry capacity.

Another idea to make inserters faster and maybe make the burner inserter stand out is to have a vacuum rather than forcing it to move around on the belt. Eg it can instantly vacuum everything that enters that tile, from both lanes if applicable. Is no different when placing items on the belt.

This is such a bad idea...

Machine progression in Factory is based, not on what is harder, but what is more technologically advanced. In keeping with that idea, it follows the real world trend that technology advances to improve existing things. Improvements in technology are deliberately designed and engineered to make things easier. As such it makes sense that advancing down a progression path for things to get easier.

The concept of a machine having a fire at its core to provide energy is an old one. As such, it is low tech. Hence why it comes first.

The challenge for late game, game play comes from several factors:
1) Player design
1a) Player aesthetics
1b) Player self-imposed challenges
2) Scale
3) Logistics chain advanced components require
4) Environmental factors (if you care for them at all)
5) Mods

This is just an all around bad idea. But, if it is still something you just gotta have, then make a mod for it and play with it to see how it goes for you.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:53 pm The burner inserter makes everything harder, so it should be placed at the end rather than the start, since people are worse at the start but better at the end. You don't put the boss at the start and the tiny rat at the end.

To be placed at the end it should be better than electric inserters, not worse.
If we allow fuel type to buff it it could potentially become better.

This misses that burner inserters are a “doesn’t need electricity” option, which would be useful early on if you didn’t get electricity so quickly.

Maddhawk wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:09 pmImprovements in technology are deliberately designed and engineered to make things easier. As such it makes sense that advancing down a progression path for things to get easier.

Did you miss the part where this is a game, so it should follow general game design rules?
People skip the burner inserter now because it has no purpose, no place in a base or in progression. It is not part of progression.
Also running advanced tech is not easier than running ancient tech. Just take a modern car. Try to repair anything yourself. Then try it on an old car.

Koub wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:32 pm [Koub] Moved from General directly into Won't implement. There's 0 chance the burner inserter, a pre-electricity tech, will ever be moved to the end of the tech tree.

It was a complaint about the misplacement of the burner inserter that made it pointless and bloat rather than fun and useful. If I intended it as an idea I would have posted it in the ideas section. It may have looked like an idea because I don't like to just complain without also providing a solution.

Nemoricus wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:24 pm

Hedning1390 wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:53 pm The burner inserter makes everything harder, so it should be placed at the end rather than the start, since people are worse at the start but better at the end. You don't put the boss at the start and the tiny rat at the end.

To be placed at the end it should be better than electric inserters, not worse.
If we allow fuel type to buff it it could potentially become better.

This misses that burner inserters are a “doesn’t need electricity” option, which would be useful early on if you didn’t get electricity so quickly.

No, it wouldn't, and no one uses it. If a noob is tricked into using it they just got a higher threshold to climb before they got a good starter base. This is why other games start with the easy thing first, because the skill threshold should be low.

Hedning1390 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:46 pmDid you miss the part where this is a game, so it should follow general game design rules?
People skip the burner inserter now because it has no purpose, no place in a base or in progression. It is not part of progression.
Also running advanced tech is not easier than running ancient tech. Just take a modern car. Try to repair anything yourself. Then try it on an old car.

I actually drive a 2000 Chevy S10. My father drives a 2018 GMC Denali. So I do get the old vs new car thing. That said, the auto makers also conspire to make repairs harder these days despite having computers and sensors far more advance than what my S10 has. If auto makers were as repair friendly as they were once upon a time, diagnosing and repairing modern cars would be a cinch. The car would be able to tell you, in plain English no less, exactly what is wrong and what is necessary to fix it.

Now, getting back on topic from analogies that do not relate, one of the core design tenants of Factorio has always been a certain degree of realism. That is why they refused to gives us simpler fluids until what they wanted to do with the expansion broke the current system so thoroughly that they were left with no choice but to simplify it.

You are right on one thing, people do skip using burner inserters. There just isn't a point to using them outside of the tutorial where they are present for newbies playing through it to learn the basic concepts of the game. It is just easier, in a fresh sandbox game, to just hand insert until you got yellow inserters and electricity for them.

So what? You aren't the first person to want to use burner inserters into the late game. The last time I saw someone talk about, they made a mod so they could do the ENTIRE factory using only burner equipment. That also meant making burner assemblers and the like too. Was neat to see, but not a challenge I personally care to take on.

The current state of inseters is fine. Yes, that is an opinion. Just as your belief that burner inserters are currently useless is an opinion.

Koub is correct. What you posted is just what he said it is, a suggestion or idea. Many suggestions/ideas originate as complaints about the existing state of the game. Some of my own, concerning the bot pathing algorithm and bot selection for a task algorithm have been examples of such. For example:

Wishing to set build priority for bots within a blueprint so they build in a same set order each time.
Construction Bot Recharge Improvement Idea

As you can see, I found something about the current state of the game that I didn't like. Thus I complained. I also offered a solution. At least, what I think is a solution. That is where the "suggestion/idea" part comes from.

This thread does belong in suggestions/ideas, not because there is something you do not like, but because you are suggesting a solution for your perceived problem.

Personally, I don't like your idea. As such, I would be supremely disappointed in Wube if they were to implement this. However, as a mod, your idea has merit. But, only as a mod. Again, that is my opinion. Just as your perceived problem, and solution, are based upon your opinions.

Seriously though, if you really want to move the burner inserter from starting tech to end tech. Make a mod. Then give it a try and see how it feels to you. If you think it is great, share it on the mod site. Encourage others to give it a try. If enough do so and like, maybe, just maybe, Wube might actually change the game based on it. After all. Earendil got a job at Wube, working on the expansion because of his own mod making. The expansion is his Space Exploration Mod significantly scaled up.

One final thought, not everything in the game needs to have a purpose. There are many things I personally do not use. Things like:
Beacons outside of helping to speed up the mining of ore patches
Productivity Modules
Shotgun, Combat Shotgun & ammo
The car
Rocket launchers, nuclear bombs & rockets (2.0 will finally give me a reason to make rockets with the new turret)
Flame thrower
Mines
Laser turrets (outside of making personal lasers)
Artillery & ammo
Solar power (outside of satellites)
Red belts, red undergrounds, red splitters (seriously, I completely skip red belts and go from yellow to blue. They only get made because blue logistics needs them as an intermediate component)
Spidertron (I have arachnophobia so it genuinely creeps me out when I see it, I will not EVER build one, I'll research it for A single game only for the research everything achievement)
Power switches
Programmable speakers
Cliff explosives (I really don't care for cliffs, so they are always disabled)
Any armor lower than the Power Armor Mk.2 (I use a mod that gives me the Mk.2 out the gate so the other stuff is useless)
Nightvision
Belt Immunity
Personal Solar Panel
Discharge defense

So, lots of things in the game have no purpose from how I play, but I'm fine with how things are. Simply because I don't use them, doesn't mean they need to be removed or changed.

There is another way to approach your issue of burner inserters being useless in your eyes. I think this could also be tested as a mod as well.

Do the following:
1) Reduce the players crafting speed from 1 to 0.1. This makes assemblers much more valuable as soon as you unlock them.
2) Remove the ability of the player to direct insert/pickup from anything other than the ground, chests, or by deconstruction. This means that insertion into machinery can only occur via inserter. Because of this, the usage of burner inserters becomes mandatory during the interim period between starting a new game and until your first electrical power is finally established.

These two changes make the usage of inserters, regardless of level mandatory, and further incentivizes players to get basic assemblers going as fast as possible. The window in which an experienced player will use burner inserters will still be short, but they won't be without purpose to an experienced player either.