Factorio Forums

Someone said they will remove rcu when 2.0 is released, even if you don't buy the expansion, for no apparent reason as no new building (except an inserter merger) or production chains from the expansion was going to be added. Is this true? and if it is; what is the reason to remove rcu in the base game?

Hedning1390 wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 7:56 pm Is this true? and if it is; what is the reason to remove rcu in the base game?

Yes. To simply rocket production.

Loewchen wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 8:21 pm

Hedning1390 wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 7:56 pm Is this true? and if it is; what is the reason to remove rcu in the base game?

Yes. To simply rocket production.

RCU will also be gone from the base game?
Interesting. ^^

From reading the clarifications at https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-382 I thought it only affected Space Age.

Anyway if it is true... good riddance. Always disliked that part. It shall not be missed from my side considering there are 3 different eletronics chips already. ^^


If only they would have added Aluminium processing then they could have gotten rid of the annoying Low Density structure as well. Never liked that one all that much either because it feels like it was slapped into the game as a late addition; as an easy way out of not having to do an Aluminium chain. Hence why it sticks out like a sore thumb. xD

Loewchen wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 8:21 pm

Hedning1390 wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 7:56 pm Is this true? and if it is; what is the reason to remove rcu in the base game?

Yes. To simply rocket production.

Do you see how that makes sense for the expansion where the rocket is low tech while it doesn't make sense for the base game where the rocket is supposed to be the end-game challenge? I am explicitly asking for the base game.

MeduSalem wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 8:59 pm Anyway if it is true... good riddance. Always disliked that part. It shall not be missed from my side considering there are 3 different eletronics chips already. ^^

RCU is a test if you can actually produce all 3 circuits in large quantities. It basically doubles the production requirement of all 3 (compared to infinite tech). It's not a 4th chip. It is a test if you can produce the 3 core intermediates. It shouldn't be removed from the base game and it especially shouldn't be removed for no other reason than a change to the rocket in an unrelated mod.

The game will be easier, our bases will be smaller, we'll have less circuit production. It'll break all current worlds. What's the compensation?

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:43 amRCU is a test if you can actually produce all 3 circuits in large quantities. It basically doubles the production requirement of all 3 (compared to infinite tech). It's not a 4th chip. It is a test if you can produce the 3 core intermediates.

First of all it is a game where you have fun. Not a test. ^^

If you think it is a test then because you made that your personal objective. If that is fun for you, good for you.

But launching x-number of rockets per minute is definitely not fun to me anymore; so I don't care about it. I have the devil knows how many thousands of hours in the game; and since I first played the game over 10 years ago I have grown too old for that mindset and moved on from chasing after some scores.

I found the current rocket ending and the parts you need to craft for that always to be a late-addition placeholder ending; one that was much, much easier to implement than the ambitious space platforms plans. However I do get why they made the decision to freeze development back then; It was to get the game into a finished 1.0 state. Otherwise the game would likely still be in Early Access to this day and suffering from feature creep.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:43 amIt shouldn't be removed from the base game and it especially shouldn't be removed for no other reason than a change to the rocket in an unrelated mod.

The game will be easier, our bases will be smaller, we'll have less circuit production.

They will increase the amount of Processing Units you need instead to compensate for the removal of RCUs.
So not like you will need less resources or less circuits or have a smaller base.

Also not like I never thought like you regarding such changes. I remember I was pretty annoyed about some changes in the past and voiced the criticism. But now I don't care about things like that anymore; or at least not to the extend I once used to. Because I get that some changes are necessary to move forward or for other reasons. As said, it is a game; and not such a huge change either. It is definitely not the end of the world. If you like the game you will adapt. ^^

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:43 amIt'll break all current worlds.

Even without the removal of RCUs the 2.0 update will likely break a lot of stuff or at least throw a temporary obstacle in your way for existing save games anyway. At least I doubt that everything will be a smooth transition; even if they try to make it as compatible as possible.

For example I remember the FF where they mention that the terrain generation for Nauvis will be modernized/updated. So if you started a game before 2.0 and transition to 2.0 you will get a nasty break-line between all the chunks you have revealed already and the chunks that use the new terrain generation. They did that a few times in the past already and I remember that it never resulted in a smooth transition. The world map looked ugly afterwards; and because I care about the aesthetics of my maps it usually bothered me enough that I started a new playthrough. ^^

If I had to take a guess some other recipes will be rebalanced/change as well as a side effect of the Research tree being reworked. Same for some other features that are being added/changed as part of the Quality of Life improvements that come for free even without the DLC.

So probably some of the current "ratios" that are burned into people's minds will change and require rethinking/rebuilding stuff even if you don't get Space Age.

If you have an issue with that sort of stuff I suggest you opt into staying on update 1.1 up until you finished your current playthrough and afterwards switch to 2.0 for a fresh start. Fresh starts after major updates usually always result in the best intended experience anyway.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:43 amWhat's the compensation?

Them being able to move forward with their original intentions of the game without having to consider old placeholder baggage.

And that will benefit you too; because I assume that you will eventually buy the expansion as well if you like the game and then you will likely not look back either unless you want to do a 2.0 no-expansion speed run for once (which I definitely intent to do eventually after some Space Age runs).


[edit]

Btw... I almost forgot... I am also sure that after 2.0 there will be a mod that will patch the RCU back in for the nostalgia and those who cannot let go. Because there is always a mod for everything. ^^

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 10:43 am It'll break all current worlds.

Even changes to the minor version (second set of numbers) for this game have always brought breaking changes with it, so frankly breaking changes with an update to the major version should be expected.

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 11:43 am They will increase the amount of Processing Units you need instead to compensate for the removal of RCUs.
So not like you will need less resources or less circuits or have a smaller base.

Actually, they did say they were making rockets cheaper because of the expected volume of rocket launches that would be needed.

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 11:43 am Btw... I almost forgot... I am also sure that after 2.0 there will be a mod that will patch the RCU back in for the nostalgia and those who cannot let go. Because there is always a mod for everything. ^^

Absolutely my thoughts as well.

FuryoftheStars wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 1:52 pmActually, they did say they were making rockets cheaper because of the expected volume of rocket launches that would be needed.

Yeah, they wrote that. But I assume the overall cheaper recipe for rockets (1/20th of currently or whatever) will only apply if you play with Space Age enabled because there it makes sense to cheapen them if you have to send a couple thousand to make all the space platform stuff and traveling to other planets happen.


However I doubt that the cheaper rocket production will apply to the base game since it will still be... well... the "end" of the game after all. They may cut the RCU for simplicity reasons of maintaining both the base & expansion, but I think they will probably use a multiplying factor on that recipe so that the overall resource consumption for the base game will remain similar to what it is now in 1.1.

If they make the recipe cheaper for the base game as well, then I agree that sending the final rocket would be like an RPG end boss that falls over from just generally farting in his direction. Unrewarding. But as said; I doubt they will make it cheaper. xD

But even if so; it also something that someone would fix with a mod to make it harder. ^^

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 11:43 amThem being able to move forward with their original intentions of the game without having to consider old placeholder baggage.

You cannot convince me that they have placeholder baggage in the game 4 years after the full release, which in turn was after 4 years in EA. EA is where you do minor tweaks to recipes, not 4 years after the full release. If you want to still change recipes for space age there's nothing preventing them from doing that. Plenty of mods change the recipes for that mod only without requiring wube to mess with the base game.

So now the ending will be a whimper instead of the crowning achievement that it was supposed to be, because in a mod was moved to early tech.

And also break all our world for no good reason.

FuryoftheStars wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 1:52 pmEven changes to the minor version (second set of numbers) for this game have always brought breaking changes with it, so frankly breaking changes with an update to the major version should be expected.

Not true. I think you could load up a 0.18 base and it'll work fine. Maybe even 0.17 (I think that's when they did the final changes to the science packs). Certainly I can load up a base I built on release (1.0) and everything will work. I have that base and I have continued in it without issue, so I know that for certain.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pmYou cannot convince me that they have placeholder baggage in the game 4 years after the full release [...]

Yea, of course you would think that way. Yet you would wonder how much placeholder stuff most projects carry around for ages. In my country there is a saying "Nothing lasts longer than temporary solutions". xD

Anyway here are the first original plans for the Space Platforms:

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-74

It was as early as February 2015. That is now more than 9 years ago. ^^

Things always take longer or go a different path from what you optimistically think they would. Once you lead a project you will know that.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pm[...] which in turn was after 4 years in EA. EA is where you do minor tweaks to recipes, not 4 years after the full release. If you want to still change recipes for space age there's nothing preventing them from doing that. Plenty of mods change the recipes for that mod only without requiring wube to mess with the base game.

The game was longer in EA than 4 years. I think it entered general EA in 2014 or something; at least that is how long I have been on the forum already; back then you had to buy the game from the Factorio site instead from Steam. I think the crowdfunding for Factorio even was as early as 2013 or whenever that was. Back then Wube didn't even have a company name and it was like 2-man team with Kovarex and such. That is like dark ages already. Somehow I even have the feeling like I touched an even earlier version at some point already where most machines even had placeholder graphics and such; I can't remember it all anymore because it is so long ago. ^^

And Factorio released in 2020. So that makes it at least 6 if not 7 years in EA.

Also I totally witnessed tons of major things being added/completely changed during the EA as well. Not just minor tweaks.

But it doesn't matter if it is not in Early Access anymore. I have witnessed tons of major things to change after games were released in all kinds of games over the years of my gaming experience. Why would Factorio be a difference; especially after they long since announced there would likely be an expansion eventually.

In life you often have to part with something existing that outlived its purpose to make room for more. That is the price of progress.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pmSo now the ending will be a whimper instead of the crowning achievement that it was supposed to be, because in a mod was moved to early tech.

Dude, get a grip. ^^
We don't fully know yet if the "base" ending will be turned into a "whimper" or not. Knowing them they will likely still require you to throw tons of resources into launching a single rocket in the base game.

That they will tweak it down if you have the Space Age expansion enabled might not even have an effect on the base game without the expansion. And the expansion will likely have its own, new final "ending".

You can start the crying when the 2.0 update/expansion is out and the Rocket Launch in the base game has been nerfed to oblivion.
But then I am sure you will not be the only one complaining;, but rather an army of non-expansion owners will flood the forum begging them to make it more worthwhile again. I have the feeling the devs have enough common sense to know that already and likely won't let it come to that. ^^

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pmNot true. I think you could load up a 0.18 base and it'll work fine. Maybe even 0.17 (I think that's when they did the final changes to the science packs). Certainly I can load up a base I built on release (1.0) and everything will work. I have that base and I have continued in it without issue, so I know that for certain.

That some "minor" versions "broke" the game is true. However it was more common for minor versions to break stuff during the earlier days of the Early Access. Hasn't happened as much in the later, more mature versions because most things were eventually "cast in stone" at some point with no major breaking points necessary anymore.

Or at least with the later versions they entered a phase where you as project manager think about certain parts "meh, this is sh*t, but it is not worth changing and breaking everything again, so let's just leave it as it is for now"; in the hopes that eventually there will be an opportunity to go back and re-do it properly eventually.

That point has come with 2.0 now. Because with 2.0 so many things will change that it is a good opportunity to work on all the backlog of stuff they didn't want to break. I am sure there is almost like no line of program code left that has not been touched in some way between 1.1 and 2.0 because if you have the chance to re-do it you do it all in one fell swoop. So it is unlikely that the transition will be a total smooth ride.

If I had to take a guess since they are already feature complete for 2.0/expansion for quite a while already I am sure there is already again some things they would have done differently for 2.0/Expansion in retrospective despite 2.0/expansion not even being out yet. But they can't do it for 2.0 anymore because it would take too much work to change it yet again. Such is project management. ^^

Whatever; I am still sure they will do what they can with conversion scripts. But I am sure some things you will still have to fix manually (which is rather a "soft" break). Maybe a few things are not fixable at all ("hard" break).

They will likely give a warning about those things anyway when the time comes, at least that would be the sensible thing to do. ^^

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pm Not true. I think you could load up a 0.18 base and it'll work fine. Maybe even 0.17 (I think that's when they did the final changes to the science packs). Certainly I can load up a base I built on release (1.0) and everything will work. I have that base and I have continued in it without issue, so I know that for certain.

0.18.0 and up was them prepping and finishing up for 1.0: last bug fixes, optimizations, etc. There were very few new features and major changes in those say compared to 0.14 -> 0.15 -> 0.16 -> 0.17.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 8:40 pm [...] after 4 years in EA.

More like 8+. Their first public release, not on Steam, was in 2012. They've also had it in mind to have the end game actually be in space since before they even added the rocket & silo, so yes, it is very believable to me that there were some components left in as place holders, or just simply as time has gone on they've become dissatisfied with their initial concept.

That said, this was where it was first mentioned that RCUs were being removed, and the stated reason why:

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... are_button

RCU was cancelled as an item, and blue chip (processing unit) is used instead of it. This is to lower the focus on rockets, especially because you have to produce rockets on every planets eventually.

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:39 pmAnyway here are the first original plans for the Space Platforms:

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-74

It was as early as February 2015. That is now more than 9 years ago. ^^

Things always take longer or go a different path from what you optimisti

If the rocket itself is a placeholder, then I should get SA for free. Why are they asking full price for an unfinished game and then asking me to pay extra for them to finish it? Either it is finished now or it's not. Which is it?

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:39 pmAnd Factorio released in 2020. So that makes it at least 6 if not 7 years in EA.

Not sure why you are arguing this. That makes it even less justifiable to not have finished it before release.

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:39 pmIn life you often have to part with something existing that outlived its purpose to make room for more. That is the price of progress.

In this case though the price (removal of rcu) has nothing to do with the new things they are adding. And I disagree that other games commonly break old saves. I have played the sims 4, terraria, oni and don't starve (for example) all have got expansions and additions, some have got a lot of new stuff, both free and premium, but they never remove anything that makes your old save not work anymore.

MeduSalem wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 9:39 pmThat point has come with 2.0 now.

That point was 1.0, and there was nothing about the engine or anything that prevented a quick recipe change. It's like the easiest thing in the world to mod. If they wanted to do it they could have at any point before 1.0 where people expect to start a game and not have it broken because of a new update.

FuryoftheStars wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 11:38 pmhttps://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... are_button

RCU was cancelled as an item, and blue chip (processing unit) is used instead of it. This is to lower the focus on rockets, especially because you have to produce rockets on every planets eventually.

This makes perfect sense for SA. It doesn't make any sense for the base game where the literal end goal is the rocket. Lowering the focus on it is strictly bad for the base game.

Hedning1390 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:54 pm If the rocket itself is a placeholder

That is not what is being said. And even then, that's only thoughts & opinions, not facts.

The rocket will still be around. The RCU is being removed in favor of blue chips. Functionally, this really makes no difference.

While a moderator has said that the cost will be reduced in the base game as well, I don't know as if they actually know anymore than us and I haven't seen direct confirmation of that, yet.

FuryoftheStars wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:06 pm While a moderator has said that the cost will be reduced in the base game as well, I don't know as if they actually know anymore than us and I haven't seen direct confirmation of that, yet.

A dev quote on this would be appreciated.