Good job with the mock-ups they look amazing. I was wondering the dialog that is used to set the color of then trains, will it not be beneficial to add a space where a user can paste a hex color code?
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:22 am
by vanatteveldt
A number of posters suggested "offloading" some of the more complex interactions to combinator settings. This would put the "90%" case with single wait on full/empty conditions in the interface, but make all the more complicated wait conditions, conditional stations, etc etc available via combinators.
I think this makes sense on three counts:
(1) it allows for a simplification of the menu/UI structure and makes it easier for beginners to use trains without being overwhelmed by the interface
(2) it fits into the philosophy of using simple things to build a complex factory
(3) it allows for blueprinting and parametrizing and probably make more complex things possible than any of the devs now envision (see some of the crazy combinator projects showcased earlier)
Some of the power users will probably have to relearn how to do with combinators some of the things we can now do with the interface, but that's the price of playing a beta
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:40 am
by Fumelfo
Teraka wrote:I had an idea this morning that you could make much more complex train schedules in a relatively easy way if you converted how it works now to more of a "state machine" format, where each station corresponds to a state and has a number of different states/stations it can go to depending on which conditions are true. The default could still be a simple loop as it is now, since that's just a state machine with all of its states going to the next one, but it would also allow for some very fancy stuff.
YISS STATE-MACHINE TRAIN NETWORKS !!! Could allow round-robin or more complex scheduling from the smelters to the crafting areas And, why not, a base with only one big-ass train ?
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:28 am
by eradicator
While i appreciate the general direction you're trying to go (less flat, more stylized) GUI, there are a number of concerns raised in my mind (and obviously all the other people here) when looking at the screenshots. As to not make a giant quote-fest post i'll stick to a simple list format:
My biggest concern, which was luckily already addressed by someone who could word it much better than i could is READABILITY. On the pictures shown both low contrast and tiny font size vastly decrease readability. Glex said the pictures aren't 100% size so i'll just hope for the best for the final version. Just saying it again because this is to me a major issue and would basically turn an easy-to-use GUI into something that might actually be so bad i'd have to stop playing.
Long Quote
[quote="glex"][quote="snds"]Hey guys, a fellow UXer here.
I really love the functionality shown here. The UX here implies a much better way to interact with stations and wait conditions that have made it difficult for me as a player to get into in the current iteration of the UI. It's one of the reasons I haven't been able to really get a complex train base going.
Now for the issues. I know this is the first stab at things so please just take this as a friendly critique.
The font colors and weight really hurt the UI usability and legibility, it's actually one of the problems I see here with the site UI. There are similar contrast issues at work here. I know that Factorio is NOT a web app, but it would behoove your team to use a contrast legibility tool for the web. The same kind of physical issues occurs even in video games.
I would also go so far as to say that the heavy shadows on the active/hover states add to that legibility issue. They end up making the screen overall dirty and hard to interact with. I do get the point of the visual style. We're building a factory, factories are dirty, but you can make a clean and legible UI with visual treatments that don't make it hard to use.
The legibility issue also goes for the icons. The icons are too detailed for the size you're using and with that dark gray color. If you're going with that size, the icon needs to be far brighter and larger to make sure users understand what the icon is meant to imply. The tabs to the top right could probably use an increase in size as well. You have really big tabs on the left but these tiny ones at the top right. A size for the right ones that are a little bit larger might make more visual sense and would help with the user with parsing the systems you have employed here.
All of that said, I really do like where things are going. Factorio is a massive beast of a game when it comes to UI and I applaud the work done thus far. If you'd like another UX person's perspective and help you guys brainstorm things remotely, I'd love to help.
-Sean[/quote]
Thanks for pointing this issue about legibility, I agree with you. And thanks also for offering your help. Till now the work has been more focused on mechanics, general composition and style. We are still moving with many placeholder elements -final colors?, sizes?, icons?, textures?, etc.-
The GUI is still looking for its final solutions and solid style. Every new panel has unique characteristics and limitations that affect the entire concept. So every step forward means rethinking what is done, and probably makes us re-adapt the used solutions for a more consistent ones.
As you said, Factorio is a massive beast concerning UI, not easy to domesticate. But luckily legibility is kinda easy to solve. Next iterations will be very focused on this issue.
Also need to mention that the mockups shown in the post are not at 100% size, so text and icons are quiet affected by it. Anyways, the problem is there also at 100%.[/quote]
Some more things that i'd like:
GUI color: I'd like to chose a general overall color (because i'm not in the mood for grey every day). Though personally i don't like dominant "textures". In GUIs i prefer plain colors.
Unavailable Stations: The current debossing is unintuitive as it suggests the station is not clickable at all. Also it would be nice for "debugging" schedules if the minimap could show the closest physical path to an unreachable station it can find. This would make it easier to find missing/wrong signals/rails that make the pathing fail. (Though i fear the underlying graph is too abstract to faciliate this.)
Tiny Buttons: The extra buttons in the top right should at least be the size of the side-bar buttons (map, achievements, blueprints, etc).
Screen Estate is valuable: Currently the "add condition" button is shows for every station. My schedules usually have no less than 2, mostly 3 conditions (inventory or inactivity or total time). Someone else already posted schedules with 9 conditions per station. With the current layout this would mean a lot of scrolling even if i just want to see which station a train is currently at/heading too.
Foreign Language input: I just noticed that i can actually copy/paste Japanese text into e.g station names now, but i still can't type it. This makes using the search boxes impossilbe in any non-ascii language.
Extended API: Currently there are a lot of things the base GUI can do that mods can not. Moving windows is one of the big ones. Reordering elements, Showing numbers on slot buttons. And many more. It would be nice if after the rewrite most of the stuff was available from the start.
Things other people suggested that i strongly agree with:
Train Groups: Manage schedules by group instead of individual trains. Add/remove trains from groups freely. (similar to OTTD)
Goto condition: Some kind of condition that lets us control the next station of a train. Might be as simple as "skip next 3 stations". A full blown automata tree like someone suggested is probably a bit too much for any GUI to handle intuitively.
Paranthesis: Add paranthesis to the conditions. Even a visual uneditable aid would already be an improvement. Until this day i assumed the conditions were left-to-right evaluated D:.
Transparency: definetly needs an option to turn it off. When Windows® first introduced semi-transparent window-borders it was a readability nightmare, and it still is. Sure it looks cool at first. But not after working with it for tens or hundrets of hours.
Better schedule editing: Ability to move a station up/down in the schedule. Copy a station including conditions, and change station('s name) without changing conditions.
Embossing: Don't overdo it
A better color picker: possibly a wheel/square like in common graphic programs. Or a pipette tool that works on the current screen, so you could click any pixel on the screen to pic that color. Similar to the choose_element_button it could be hidden in a seperate popup.
Things i really liked:
Help Button: Looks like a really good and intiutive place to display additional information. I'm herby preemtively request an API to add pages for custom GUIs.
Train path preview: Awesome!
About the sticking out of the window buttons... initially i actually liked those, but after reading a few posts complaining about them i remembered the horrors of winamp skins which came in all sorts of annoying shapes and distasteful colors. And i think that it's probably for the better that we've arrived at square windows as a gold standard.
Ultimately i think, if you haven't already, you will have to decide if you want your GUI to be more visually pleasing in an attempt to suck in new players, or if you want to lean towards readability and usability to appeal to the long-term players. Unless of course you somehow manage to make a magic GUI that pleases both groups needs.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 am
by Sonik-HSC
The game looks beautiful.... But for a milion question--- We will need a super computer to play this game? A lot of improvements its means a lot more power...
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:09 pm
by pleegwat
Regarding skipping stations: How about a set of conditions on whether to visit a station, in addition to the wait conditions? Normally this would be an empty list, meaning the station is visited. Adding a rule like 'Fuel less than X MJ' or 'Cargo of Iron less than 8000' could make a station be skipped if the condition is false. Possibly there could even be conditions based on circuit conditions at the destination station as well, which could allow you to put all your iron outposts on the same station name, and only have trains route to outposts with a certain amount of iron available to be loaded.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:33 pm
by JKLxHIDE
Can you include ability to add stations by clicking them on map view or drag&drop(funy but not necessary)?
And thanks for your work. This enhancments are pretty awesome.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:01 pm
by Gecko
I really like the way the GUI is developing. The preview looks promising!!!
As you rework the looks anyways, can we request also additions? I got one on my mind I'd really love to see.
I'd like to be able to view the content of the wagons in an additional tab on the train screen. like the fuel-tab and the station-tab on there left. just another tab displaying the wagons in a list manner, showing the slots and cargo there.
I still love the game!! after years.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:04 pm
by Andrzejef
Hell, I liked going nearby to the railway, and spamming "enter" while any train got close. But this temporary stop, this auto-(or rather train)-stop, is awesome
Also I second gecko idea - I think it would be nice to have that too
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:07 pm
by R3vo
The UI looks great already. Can't wait for it
One suggestion though. Might it be possible to add colour presets to the colour pick menu? So one can quickly change the colour of a train to a predefined colour. I always set the colour as close a possible to the colour of the product they carry and fiddling with those 3 sliders everytime is quite annoying. Would be a nice quality of life improvement, at least for me.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:36 pm
by olafthecat
This is art
There should be a smiley for crying with happiness!
I love the blurred transparency, beautiful...
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:38 pm
by Blailus
kovarex wrote:
And as other people suggested, having train routes could be useful if it doesn't make it less understandable.
I think the route method should be very easily explained in a tutorial. I see having a pre-defined path and assigning a vehicle to that path be a very logical way to schedule things.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:19 pm
by Xarovin
May have been suggested but the thread is 5 pages long - when adding a new station to the schedule, it'd be nice to see a path from the previous station.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:24 pm
by LD100
Nice plans.
Just one thing the condition is called "Item count" but then you just display the text "Cargo:" this could be confusing for new players.
Maybe change the Condition to: "Cargo item count". So nobody is confused what Item counts mean.
And maybe change "Wait condition" to "Wait until:" this makes clear that the wait condition is more a when should the train start condition.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:37 pm
by Jap2.0
Obliterator2 wrote:May have been suggested but the thread is 5 pages long - when adding a new station to the schedule, it'd be nice to see a path from the previous station.
The thing is, the path isn't always the same. It shows you the path the train is currently on, but the path from one station to the next isn't always the same and can even change midway.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 pm
by Xarovin
Jap2.0 wrote:The thing is, the path isn't always the same. It shows you the path the train is currently on, but the path from one station to the next isn't always the same and can even change midway.
Yeah I'm aware of that part, but I mean as a general idea it'd be nice to see the optimal route. I mean like for example if the quickest route requires a huge detour around the entire base, you've either messed up the pathing, or you've got the stations in the wrong order.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:24 pm
by AcolyteOfRocket
Don't know if this has already been asked for (didn't read all 5 pages) but.....
1. I request the ability to move a station up and down in the schedule - It's annoying inserting a station in the wrong place and then having to delete it and try again.
2. A "clone train" button would be nice. Obviously we need to put down the train(+fuel) and wagons, but then if we could clone all the settings (loco and wagons) from another train that would be cool.
3. The ability to set the timetable to specific station index in the schedule list (at a station) might be nice. ie. Say I have the following Schedule : Iron base (empty all), Iron mine 1 (stay 20 secs), Iron mine 2 (stay 20 secs), Iron mine 3 (stay 20 secs). If I fill up the train at Iron mine 1, I would like to be able to ping it from a combinator there setting the station index to 1 (or 0 for C++ monkeys ) which would set the next station to the 1st in the list. This way I don't send a full train to Iron mines 2 or 3. Combinator professors would no doubt be able to do much more with this system
Ta very much
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:58 pm
by Diablo
Please add the ability to change to order of the stops, either by dragging, add an up and down arrow button or an index number in front of the stops that can be changed... Please.
Thank you.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm
by Avezo
I find it weird how new GUI is modern-looking while entire game is steam-industrial looking. Old GUI was simple enough to overlook it, but with this new one it kinda doesn't fit with game theme. I suggest to try iteration with making GUI less modern-clean and more steam-dirty.
Re: Friday Facts #212 - The GUI update (Part 1)
Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:40 pm
by Engimage
AcolyteOfRocket wrote:2. A "clone train" button would be nice. Obviously we need to put down the train(+fuel) and wagons, but then if we could clone all the settings (loco and wagons) from another train that would be cool.
You can already do this by Shift-rightclick (copy) and Shift+leftclick (paste) for locomotives and wagons
And, why not, a base with only one big-ass train ?
