Philip017 wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:58 pm
realistically the lack of balance in the tutorial left me with playing a heavily unbalanced game until i learned this way would be better. luckily your game can be played that way as it will just work, even if it doesn't work best. so that is a major plus. but i think learning the balance of some things would be helpful in the tutorial.
One of my main missions with the new content it to increase the quality of the lesson that the early game gives. Just forcing the player to make each interaction once in a row its a great way to say as a developer "Hey! We put a tutorial in our game so dont complain", but I think Factorio deserves better.
Philip017 wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:58 pm
i will be testing the new tutorial when 17 experimental is released and will give you feedback for sure.
I look forward to your feedback, but I would also enjoy you watching someone who never played Factorio play the new early game. It can be very frustrating for the observer, but if you can manage to say nothing during the experience (and even watch them suffer through parts they dont understand) then your feedback will be even more valuable.
Therax wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:16 pm
I found the existing tutorial effective, even though I did find the constant modal pop ups very disruptive. I think having them be non-modal, so the user can continue interacting with the world while the tutorial text stays visible, would be a solid improvement.
With the current tutorial, the modal popups are 100% necessary, as they need to show you things that will complete very quickly (eg, craftng queue, smelter progress). The new system does not have modal popups, but now suffers from being unable to show these things very well.
Therax wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:16 pm
Have you considered collecting metrics during the campaigns (time for a player to reach the progression milestones, and a full replay of their experience), and having an OPT-IN button for the player to send it to Wube for review?
The new version has anonymous metrics built in that are stored in the savegame (but only generated during the tutorial scenario). Currently this only includes result and timing data, but I would like to extend it to process data. Let us see if we put it into the 0.17 expermental release. NB4 data privacy shitstorm: this data would not be sent to us automatically unless you send us your savegame (which I would love to have happen), and is not going to be added to freeplay.
Klydon wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:37 pm
My experience as an instructor over the years and as a trainer is that the best way for people to learn something and have it stick the best is not to show them or give them a very regimented step by step, but coach them through it. Let them handle the controls and work with it. People will pick it up at varying speeds, but for most, it will stick better with them running things with a little prompting and help when needed.
This is more the direction we are heading. Two sections: The first one where the player is introduced to new concepts one after the other, and a second section where we "assess the learning" by having the player complete a "mini freeplay". It is also important for the data that we have metrics not only for how the player interacts with the lesson, but how they apply the knowledge that we expected them to learn.
severalpeople wrote:
Give the player a choice before they start as to what kind of tutorial they want
I saw this suggestion a few times and wanted to mention something. Players already have this option in Factorio (and basically every other game). They can have the tutorial where they play the tutorial or they can have the tutorial where they skip the tutorial and figure it out for themselves (or use some other learning resource such as wikis and youtube).
Giving further choices can be dangerous as a new player has no context in which to make this decision. As game designers, it is our responsibility to find a happy medium where new players have the right amount of choice. Equally important is to create a scenario that works for both Players of a Similar Genre and Humans without Game Literacy (plus everything in between).
uscolumbia wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:10 pm
The hardest part for me to learn was stringing builds together to make a complex component. Science and green circuits took me a while to understand how to build on my own. Science needs belts and inserters; belts: iron and gears; while inserters: gears, plates, and green ciruits; green circuits: plates and copper wire, etc. I kept getting confused trying to figure out the whole string before starting instead of taking each part individually.
I guess that is really the learning curve for me. Getting the Factorio mindset that then leads to an addiction
This was the other reason that the tutorial was originally slated for a rework. The current tutorial does not have that "Factorio Feel" of encouraging creativity. It is actually a good tutorial, but it gives you an impression that this game will tell you what to do. We all know that once you load Freeplay, the game will give you no direction apart from launching a rocket.
Tev wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:00 am
Mike5000 wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:35 am
... if the first 15 minutes of a game feels shitty, there is big chance that the player will not play any further.
A million people tried the demo, learned from the tutorial, and went on to buy the game.
I mean, you can improve it. Somehow. But reading some comments here, your ideas and all the tradeoffs involved ... What actually needs improving? Current version works. Overhaul will consume a lot of time for who knows what benefit.
Maybe a few tweaks is all that is needed. E.g. some in-game wiki, that seems like straightforward & common suggestion.
I agree it has been a grand undertaking. The benefit is unfortunately not one that anyone reading this forum right now will benefit from (ok, maybe a bigger playerbase is better for everyone). Come release, there will be a spike of new players who have been either holding off on buying or will see the game for the first time. These players need a bigger hook than what is currently offered in the demo/tutorial.
The other component is that the current tutorial was designed before research was added to the game. Looking back, it also seems that the current version was added at the same time as Assembling Machines. These two things have become a much much larger part of the game and deserve to be shown.
severalpeople wrote:
Asking your community about the tutorial is like asking a yeti ...
Instead of telling people their opinions are not valuable I prefer to let people know how to make their opinions more useful. If anyone REALLY wants to give me some useful intel about the tutorial (new or old), then please invite someone over to play the tutorial while you watch and follow this easy 10 point program (its not easy).
- Do not under any circumstances give them help yourself
- Encourage them to ask questions out loud while they play (but do not answer)
- Have them play the tutorial and then drop them into Freeplay
- Let them know they can quit at any time (being frustrated and quitting is part of the process)
- In their freeplay session, see how long it takes for them to Automate Red Science (if they do)
- Stop after 3 hours total (tutorial + freeplay)
- Observe their behaviors and learn something for yourself how new players actually play this game.
- Write down your observations and send them to me (ben.buckton@factorio.com)
This is a pretty excruciating process for the observer. You will want to help them. Seeing as the best introduction to the game is having a friend teach you, this process is effectively the opposite and may just stop them playing the game again ever. BUT! You will now have a really good viewpoint from which to build tutorial ideas.
Actually, this is the reason why it was Kovarex writing the FFF this time. He came to watch some of our in house testing sessions and immediately saw a few problems he could solve. The new additions are great and we already see them working.
