Factorio Forums

BlakeMW wrote:The thing is, that with normal-ish settings before you can really get serious about Advanced Circuits, Science Pack 3 and Processing Units you need to massively increase your copper and iron income. To do so, requires securing more territory. To do that, requires combat. The earliest good cost-effective combat gear available is Modular Armor w/ Energy shield (for use with flamethrower) and the Tank. But even without ramping up your resources it's perfectly easy to make a few hundred red circuits and a dozen processing units to get those combat options. (Okay if you're using offensive turrets it doesn't really matter because gun turrets w/ regular ammo will do everything you need until late Big Biter era - but like many players I prefer to abstain from offensive turrets).

Koub wrote:I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

lancar wrote:For the purple tier, combine the alien artifacts with some items that define the blue tech level to make the purple science. That would, at least, straighten out the last tier progression a bit.

But what items would that be?

• Science Pack 1: Copper Plate, Iron Gear Wheel
• Science Pack 2: Steel Plate, Basic Transport Belt, Inserter
• Science Pack 3: Advanced Circuit, Battery, Fast Transport Belt, Fast Inserter
• Science Pack 4: Low Density Structure, Processing Unit, Engine Unit, Express Transport Belt, Stack Inserter, Alien Artefact.

• Science Pack 1: Copper Plate, Iron Gear Wheel
• Science Pack 2: Steel Plate, Electronic Circuit, Stone Brick
• Science Pack 3: Advanced Circuit, Battery, Engine Unit, Concrete
• Science Pack 4: Low Density Structure, Processing Unit, Electric Engine Unit, Rocket Control Unit, Explosives, Alien Artefact.

fandingo wrote: I don't see much problem in the steep jump.

  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-1",
    energy_required = 5,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"copper-plate", 1},
      {"iron-gear-wheel", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-1"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-2",
    energy_required = 6,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"inserter", 1},
      {"transport-belt", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-2"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-3",
    enabled = false,
    energy_required = 12,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"barrel-of-lube", 1},
      {"solid-fuel", 1},
      {"filter-inserter", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-3"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "alien-science-pack",
    enabled = false,
    energy_required = 18,
    ingredients = 
    {
      {"battery", 1},
      {"advanced-circuit", 1},
      {"stack-inserter", 1},
      {"steel-plate", 1}
    },
    result = "alien-science-pack",
  }

MeduSalem wrote: Maybe the science packs should only require intermediate items altogether (somewhat like material science) so you learn how to set them up. Getting finished products is then part of your job.

huwp wrote:

MeduSalem wrote: Maybe the science packs should only require intermediate items altogether (somewhat like material science) so you learn how to set them up. Getting finished products is then part of your job.

I like this idea a lot!

tehroach wrote:

fandingo wrote: I don't see much problem in the steep jump.

For me I don't really see the problem so much with the steep jump, it is the vast cliff on the other side that worries me

I suppose I would suggest something like

Code: Select all

  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-1",
    energy_required = 5,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"copper-plate", 1},
      {"iron-gear-wheel", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-1"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-2",
    energy_required = 6,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"inserter", 1},
      {"transport-belt", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-2"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "science-pack-3",
    enabled = false,
    energy_required = 12,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"barrel-of-lube", 1},
      {"solid-fuel", 1},
      {"filter-inserter", 1}
    },
    result = "science-pack-3"
  },
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "alien-science-pack",
    enabled = false,
    energy_required = 18,
    ingredients = 
    {
      {"battery", 1},
      {"advanced-circuit", 1},
      {"stack-inserter", 1},
      {"steel-plate", 1}
    },
    result = "alien-science-pack",
  }

Also I would give the barrels a nurf and reduce their volume to 3-5 rather than the current 25

This would also give a bit of balance to the tanker wagon when it comes because the current cargo wagons can hold 10,000 (25x10x40)
ie 3x10x40 = 1200 or 5x10x40 = 2500, bearing in mind that the current tanks only hold 2500, how much would the tanker wagons need to hold, to compete against the 25unit barrels and still be viable?

fandingo wrote:I'll be a little intentionally obtuse: What cliff?

fandingo wrote:After building blue science automation, there's tons of stuff to do -- not least of which is getting resources to actually complete research. Outposts to build, assembly lines that to be scaled, laying rail, setting/building robots and roboports, booming electrical production, oil cracking, setting up modules, and dealing with biters just to name a few. If you're speaking about the difficulty of oil, that's always going to be far more difficult than anything else in the game -- so many input/outputs that require more complex routing than belts.

fandingo wrote:Did you mean to omit alien artifacts from SP4? Can an AM3 take 5 ingredients? Are AA only useful for crafting advanced military items and module 3s?

fandingo wrote:I don't like the steel change at all. There aren't many things that require steel, and the only three substantial non-science consumers are more advanced electric poles, solar panels, and AP ammo. I don't think many players are building a substantial amount of solar this early in the game. Sure maybe a handful of arrays, but not much. Anyways, my concern is that for a large portion of the game very little steel is needed. That doesn't seem right. Providing steel at a good clip is an important mid-game necessity for the current SP3, but if you take that away, the player has less incentive to spend time on that until late-game.

fandingo wrote:I took a look at the raw resource numbers for stock science and your modifications. I was interested how this changed raw resource requirements -- ignoring oil since there's multiple ways to produce the outputs. Since we typically use all levels of science packs simultaneously, here's what's required for a tier-4 science research point. Stock: 18 copper, 21.5 iron, steel 1, 1 alien artifact. Yours: 50 copper, 79 iron, 1 steel. Science is substantially more expensive. I guess that's fine in itself, but the troubling aspect is the large disparity between copper and iron inputs. I would go as far to say that the increased costs and disparities present make the curve steeper than stock. Oil still needs to be setup and actually has more components due to the necessity of solid fuel and lubricant. Presently, it's possible to get 555 SP3 with 1-tank for each output, 1 refinery, and 1 pump jack. Yours requires a lot more setup. Plus, if *barrels* of lubricant are required that requires even more factory components and belt/rail logistics. Additionally, the higher copper requirements makes it a lot more difficult to build rockets (low density structures require 5 copper plate) while performing any research, especially the higher tiers.

fandingo wrote:Part of the reason I wanted people to post configurations was that it's easy to mod these recipes and play with them. You should try a factory with these science recipes and share your experience.

fandingo wrote:I don't think that changing the recipes or ratios of raw resources kills any ideas, but I don't think these particulars are reasonable.

fandingo wrote:The capacity of a filled refined oil recipe isn't tied to the same volume as the crude recipe -- make up whatever reason on why they have different volume (eg. more dangerous, different density/compressibility, more value so packaged in smaller quantities, etc.). I don't know about you, but it's impractical to completely fill trains with oil. I send mine when they get to 400 filled barrels; otherwise, it'd take days to get an oil delivery from depleted outposts, even with speed modules and beacons. Additionally, like everything coming off of trains, don't you use the buffer chests? It's not like a trainload needs to be immediately pumped into tanks. I do agree that train wagon capacity is getting absurd, and I wish there was more incentive to use longer trains. But that's a separate topic.

I haven't really had the chance to get anywhere in 0.13.x to warrent train loads of oil, but in 0.12.x we had a couple of trains that would come back fully loaded with oil barrels, they would consume about 10 solid fuel in the journey though.

I would definitely have to agree that there is no good reason to use buffer chests on oil stops, that being said I suppose my idea of a full train wagon of oil is really only half full because I usually partition the wagons to be half full of empty barrels on the way out and half full of full barrels on the way in. To me this just ends up being easier, because the empty barrels are always where they need to be and not clogging up something else.

So there is never any reason to have more than 1 oil tank at a drilling site if there is going to be a train waiting, because you are just waiting on the oil jacks.

This is why I proposed a reduction from 25 to 3 as it would weight the tanks to be larger than the wagons.

I would definitely have to agree that there is no good reason to use buffer chests on oil stops

fandingo wrote:Yeah, I can make a mod with your recipes. I'll post it in a little bit. We can continue the SP balancing discussion afterwards. You can replace the science pack recipes in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Factorio\data\base\prototypes\recipe.lua on Windows or ~/.steam/steamapps/common/Factorio/data/base/prototypes/recipe.lua on Linux.

tehroach wrote: So there is never any reason to have more than 1 oil tank at a drilling site if there is going to be a train waiting, because you are just waiting on the oil jacks.
This is why I proposed a reduction from 25 to 3 as it would weight the tanks to be larger than the wagons.

fandingo wrote: It's worth pointing out that if you're consuming oil at any decent rate, the trains will mostly be waiting at the depots instead of the factory. Combine that with how poor most oil wells are and how quickly they deplete to negligible production, that 1 tank will hardly ever be full. I agree that more than 1 tank at a depot is useless, but since the tank isn't ever going to get full anyways, balancing barrel and wagon capacities against a tank doesn't offer much utility. I'm not sure I like changing the barrel capacity. It changes the number of assembly machines for (un)loading.

fandingo wrote:I standardized the entire factory on 1-3-1 trains, but there's no reason why these trains need to be so long given the 400 barrel conditions.

tehroach wrote: I would definitely have to agree that there is no good reason to use buffer chests on oil stops

fandingo wrote: I think buffer chests are necessary on all train stations. They dramatically improve efficiency. In the screenshot above, my factory isn't consuming hardly an oil. The last time this train visited this depot it left some extra empty barrels. Over time these empty barrels were released from the buffer chests (when crude >700 in the tank), and placed into the full barrel buffer chests. Without chests, this work couldn't be done ahead of time, so the next time the train arrives it has to wait for the barrels to be filled. With chests, there's already 400 full barrels ready, so the train can depart much quicker (after dropping off 400 empty barrels and picking up 400 full barrels).

fandingo wrote:My complaint with wagon capcaity isn't really related to oil. I'm never filling oil trains anyways. My complaint was more directed at my green circuits 1-3-1 train that can hold 24K items.

TheWesDude wrote:it always ends up with people having full tanks of light oil, petroleum tanks empty, and heavy oil almost full wondering why their refineries stopped working.

the problem with blue science is not that it is difficult in and of itself, it is that it is so petroleum demanding it leaves light/heavy out causing frustration in new players not knowing that their first research needs to be advanced oil processing so they can do cracking. seeing as how many things require red circuits, i think a good fix would be to remove red circuits and add solid fuel instead which can be made from light or heavy leaving petroleum only having 1 material required which would make it easier for new players.

then have purple science need red circuits, alien artifacts, and maybe something else or just leave it at red circuits and alien artifacts.