Factorio Forums

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Could someone explain how to tweak the energy outputs? I want to make this more compatible with the Harder Energy mod.

data.raw["generator"]["petroleum-generator"].effectivity = 200
data.raw["generator"]["petroleum-generator"].fluid_usage_per_tick = 0.0025

Anson wrote:If someone wants to get enough CO2 from the air to produce one kg of plastic, he needs to suck in and filter one million kg of air which is roughly one million cubic meters (37 million cubic feet, the volume of the Empire State Building). besides the problem how to extract the CO2 from one million cubic meters of air and how much energy that extraction would require, the pumps alone (to suck in the air) would use up roughly 100 kg of oil, and from that oil 100 kg of plastic could be made instead of only 1 kg from the CO2 in the air. btw: with that pipe they used when showing their "revolutionary invention" (maybe 5 cm or max 10 cm in diameter), they would have a windspeed of 30 km/s (kilometers per second !) or mach 100 (100x the speed of sound).

Even when game mechanics are different from real world mechanics, they should not be the opposite of reality. Maybe on another planet, there is 1000 times more CO2 in the air and we would need only 1000 cubic meters for 1 kg of plastic, and/or maybe we don't have only CO2 in the air, but can filter small particles of coal (soot?) directly. It still would be stretching reality quite a bit to give some explanation for those air cleaner machines, or for generators running with "fuel from thin air". I won't use the air cleaners any longer in my maps, and hope for machines that enable me to use H2 as storage instead (or in addition to) accumulators.

Sean Mirrsen wrote:

Anson wrote:btw: with that pipe they used when showing their "revolutionary invention" (maybe 5 cm or max 10 cm in diameter), they would have a windspeed of 30 km/s (kilometers per second !) or mach 100 (100x the speed of sound).

Even when game mechanics are different from real world mechanics, they should not be the opposite of reality.

Even if they work in practice, a few gigantic turbines sucking in air to get rid of harmful CO2 emissions will generate so much general disturbance that their effect will be pretty much nullified.

thereaverofdarkness wrote:I did a test with the oil steam boiler to figure out how much power you get from the oil. One steam engine uses 300 steam in exactly 50 seconds when it is running at full output. The oil steam boiler produces 300 steam in 5 seconds, using 30kW during that time, or 150kJ. With 50 seconds of running at 510kW output, it generates 25,500 kJ, subtract the 150 and we get a maximum output of 25.35 MJ for exactly half the oil cost of a single solid fuel. One solid fuel gives 25 MJ, making the oil steam boiler have 200% efficiency over solid fuel. I guess this is to represent both the logistics of using water and the higher tech required in researching the oil boiler.

thereaverofdarkness wrote: I don't know if I'm doing some math wrong, but it looks like the Diesel Generator is running at 36% efficiency. It expends 1 diesel fuel per 30 seconds running a 300kW radar. 1 diesel fuel requires the same components as could be made into 1 solid fuel, which yields 25MJ. At 36% efficiency, it is the least efficient source of solid fuel to power, slightly lower than the burner generator.

• Diesel: 100
• Light Oil: 100
• Petroleum: 80
• Heavy Oil: 60
• Anything else: 15

• Diesel: (100 - 15) * 100 = 8.5MJ : 2.55MW
• Light Oil: (100 - 25) * 100 = 7.5MJ : 2.25MW
• Petroleum: (80 - 25) * 100 = 5.5MJ : 1.65MW
• Heavy Oil: (60 - 25) * 100 = 3.5MJ : 1.05MW

BlakeMW wrote:

thereaverofdarkness wrote: I don't know if I'm doing some math wrong, but it looks like the Diesel Generator is running at 36% efficiency. It expends 1 diesel fuel per 30 seconds running a 300kW radar. 1 diesel fuel requires the same components as could be made into 1 solid fuel, which yields 25MJ. At 36% efficiency, it is the least efficient source of solid fuel to power, slightly lower than the burner generator.

That's in close agreement with the numbers I determined for the Diesel Generator, 1 light oil -> 7.5MW and 1 Diesel -> 9MW sounds reasonable. But I now know how to calculate what the numbers should be, from the raws:

The calculation is as follows:
The diesel generator is a modified steam engine which like the steam engine consumes any liquid. It is 100x more efficient than a steam engine. It consumes 0.3 fuel/s and the liquid which enters it is set to the the following temperatures by a script:

• Diesel: 100
• Light Oil: 100
• Petroleum: 80
• Heavy Oil: 60
• Anything else: 15

The energy capacity is 1kJ per degree above the default temperature of the liquid, which is 25 degrees for all oils, and 15 degrees for diesel fuel. So we can now calculate MJ per fuel and MW (MJ/s) by multiplying that by 0.3:

• Diesel: (100 - 15) * 100 = 8.5MJ : 2.55MW
• Light Oil: (100 - 25) * 100 = 7.5MJ : 2.25MW
• Petroleum: (80 - 25) * 100 = 5.5MJ : 1.65MW
• Heavy Oil: (60 - 25) * 100 = 3.5MJ : 1.05MW

In my post on page 4, I calculate the actual power output to be 7.5MJ which is in very close agreement.

Because it's secretly just a steam engine, it is also possible to run a diesel generator at on hot water which lets you get nearly 100x the energy out of hot water as you would with the normal steam engine. But this relies on doing some extremely exploitative things with small pumps to manipulate the setup in just the right way that it consumes hot water without the script getting a chance to cool the water to 15 degrees.

Klonan wrote: The best now is the oil boiler, as it doesn't require any scripting now (fluid temperature can be set in recipe properly)

Klonan wrote:
I've changed the script for 0.13, along with balancing the oil boiler and making it more script efficient, along with the wind turbines,
Overall the new version will be more heavily optimised for large factories, and really the least efficient part is the burner generator (but you shouldn't be using large numbers of them anyway

The best now is the oil boiler, as it doesn't require any scripting now (fluid temperature can be set in recipe properly)

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Perhaps it is pertinent to consider that for gameplay reasons, the technology is a standalone building, when in real life, the obvious solution would be to fit your air cleaners directly to your exhaust vents. Air cleaning technology really does work, it's just not done as a standalone building.

Anson wrote:

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Perhaps it is pertinent to consider that for gameplay reasons, the technology is a standalone building, when in real life, the obvious solution would be to fit your air cleaners directly to your exhaust vents. Air cleaning technology really does work, it's just not done as a standalone building.

TRUE. Maybe someday someone will write a MOD for some modules which could be inserted into machines, burners and engines/generators, and which would reduce pollution for the cost of a bit more energy usage and/or less effectivity ? Maybe there should even be no additional disadvantage since using such modules already would reduce the number of available slots for the current modules that improve production.

The other problem still remains: how can you produce something useful from that filtered CO2 in a cost-efficient and energy-efficient way ? if there would be any method to do so in the real world, wouldn't big companies (most of all the energy companies that produce tons of CO2 every minute) already have built factories to produce lots of plastic or other things "for free" from that filtered CO2 and make even more profit a second time after already having sold electricity ?

Anson wrote:The other problem still remains: how can you produce something useful from that filtered CO2 in a cost-efficient and energy-efficient way ? if there would be any method to do so in the real world, wouldn't big companies (most of all the energy companies that produce tons of CO2 every minute) already have built factories to produce lots of plastic or other things "for free" from that filtered CO2 and make even more profit a second time after already having sold electricity ?

Nebbeh wrote:Hi. Thanks for the modpack. Question tho. I tried the burner generator, seems its producing about 51kw of power, is this correct? seems abit little imo.

thereaverofdarkness wrote:

Nebbeh wrote:Hi. Thanks for the modpack. Question tho. I tried the burner generator, seems its producing about 51kw of power, is this correct? seems abit little imo.

It should produce a max of 102kw, though it may take 3-5 seconds to max out. It should produce over 51kw almost immediately.