Factorio Forums

bobingabout wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:55 am

Mecejide wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:48 am It's possible to get light oil and heavy oil before advanced oil processing using oil processing with sulfur. To fix this you could make oil processing with sulfur output only petroleum gas and sulfur.

it is intended, many of the bob processes requires heavy and light oil and aren't locked behind science pack 3.

Then why do lubricatnt and rocket fuel still require advanced oil processing?

RocketManChronicles wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:48 amAs for my oil refinery.... well, let's say that I have 8,000 logistic bots moving over 300,000 barrels of fluids to be able to keep up the throughput. <...> The sad part, or maybe the good part, is that I consume that much in my factory. But yeah, pipes are a literal bottleneck in late game Bob's factories.

At least for oil processing, that does not match my experience at all. I haven't played much of Bob's in 0.17, but in 0.16 I built a bot-free (and barrel-free) 10k SPM base, using pumps only for rocket fuel and train stations.

I did use un-nerfed god modules, but I'm not sure you can entirely blame Bob if you nerf his modules that much. By my calculations, using modules with a 20% productivity bonus instead of ones with a 50% bonus will increase the demand for heavy oil and petroleum gas by a factor of about 7, and the demand for crude oil by a factor of somewhere between 12 and 15. Even using un-nerfed productivity 8s instead of god 5s appears to increase the heavy and petroleum demand by a factor of 2.

RocketManChronicles wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:48 amThe Silver-Zinc batteries require a TON of Sodium Hydroxide, required in two parts of the recipe which equates to 3 Sodium Hydroxide per 1 Silver Zinc battery.

That would be true if you weren't using any productivity modules at all. If you aren't using productivity modules every chance you get, that's going to make your oil problems even worse. Your +20% modules will reduce that to about 1.12 sodium hydroxide per battery, and will reduce the petroleum gas requirements (via plastic) from 10 per battery to 2.07 per battery.

yes, the biggest enemy lategame are pipes, which is kind of funny. you also need a lot of water. designing a megabase with the pipe constraints is actually somewhat interesting, because pipes behave somewhat unpredictable and it requires lots of thought. but i lost interest after about 150 rockets and am done now.

if i would do another run, i would nerf the modules at the start. i hope they get nerfed, so that other players can have a lategame that is more interesting and balanced.

Mecejide wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:54 pm

bobingabout wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:55 am

Mecejide wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:48 am It's possible to get light oil and heavy oil before advanced oil processing using oil processing with sulfur. To fix this you could make oil processing with sulfur output only petroleum gas and sulfur.

it is intended, many of the bob processes requires heavy and light oil and aren't locked behind science pack 3.

Then why do lubricatnt and rocket fuel still require advanced oil processing?

Short answer... base game changes.

I was pretty much done with 0.17 mods when they dropped a huge oil rework on us just before stable.

Hi, just starting with your mod and loving it so far! Using all the latest "Bob's" mods I found through the ingame mod portal, along with Rampant AI, FNEI, and Helmod.

I'm not sure whether this counts as a "balance" issue, but it appears that making Enriched Fuel Blocks using Solid Fuel + Hydrazine results in less total energy than just converting the Hydrogen needed for Hydrazine into Solid Fuel instead, especially when counting the energy expended in the complex Hydrazine manufacturing process. Of course, it's just as likely that I'm making a mistake / missing a step somewhere here, but was also just looking into options for fuel in general, and couldn't find this being discussed elsewhere on the forums.

I fiddled around in Excel for a bit, but the short version is that once you've made the 800 Hydrogen required, you can use it to make the Hydrazine for 1x Enriched Fuel Block, which yields 50MJ rather than the 12MJ of the Solid Fuel used to create it. The non-Hydrogen, non-Solid Fuel portions of production should use about ~14 MJ 20.6 MJ of energy at the starting tier of machines, resulting in a net energy increase of 50 - 12 - 14 20.6 = 17.4 MJ.

However, that 800 Hydrogen could instead be used along with 4.57x pieces of Coal to make 4.57x Solid Fuel, which would be worth 54.84 MJ rather than the 18.28 MJ of the Coal used to create it. The non-Hydrogen, non-Coal portions of production should only use about ~2 MJ of energy at the starting tier of machines, resulting in a net energy increase of 54.84 - 18.28 - 2 = 34.56 MJ.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like I would get 144% (34.56MJ/24MJ) ~200% (34.56MJ / 17.4 MJ) as much net energy increase by using any Hydrogen for making Solid Fuel rather than trying to make Enriched Fuel Blocks. Now I know the Enriched Fuel Blocks have a slightly lower Pollution value when used as fuel, but I imagine that would be offset by all the Pollution created in the complicated process of making the Enriched Fuel Block in the first place. Also I know that as I get increased technology and better machine upgrades the electricity cost for producing items will go down, but I assume it will go down roughly equally for the Solid Fuel process and the Enriched Fuel Block process.

Thanks again for the great mod, and hopefully I'm not just missing some obvious part of the chain that makes sense here!

At that point of the game, you also have to take efficiency & productivity modules into account...
Also, a chain that requires depletable resources like coal should probably have better results than one that does not ?

Xenonex wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:18 am Thanks again for the great mod, and hopefully I'm not just missing some obvious part of the chain that makes sense here!

Basically what Blue Templar said:

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:26 am At that point of the game, you also have to take efficiency & productivity modules into account...
Also, a chain that requires depletable resources like coal should probably have better results than one that does not ?

Plus the fact that enriched fuel has a higher energy density per stack, however, I could look into increasing the fuel value of the fuel block.

Solid fuel has a fuel value of 12MJ
Enriched fuel has a fuel value of 50MJ
Rocket fuel has a fuel value of 100MJ

Actually, since rocket fuel is only 100MJ, it wouldn't be very easy to increase Enriched fuel without making rocket fuel seem less useful... especially considering you have to mix an entire second fluid production chain in there to make it after hydrazine.
Perhaps reduce the cost of enriched fuel itself could help a little?

Well I finally learned how to use the Helmod planner, and found out I miscalculated the energy cost for making the Nitrogen, but had actually calculated it too low, so it looks like it actually takes ~ 20.6 MJ to create an Enriched Fuel Block from 1 Solid Fuel & 800 Hydrogen, not 14MJ, so Enriched Fuel Blocks gain 50 -12 - 20.6 = only 17.4 MJ. This puts Solid Fuel at an even greater advantage of about ~200% (34.56MJ / 17.4 MJ) as much net energy increase as opposed to Enriched Fuel Blocks.

Additionally, it's notable that since making 800 Hydrogen by Electrolysis costs 24 MJ at tier 1, making the Enriched Fuel Blocks would lose energy unless you make the Hydrogen from petroleum, which requires an Oil setup, while the Solid Fuel is still energy positive even with Electrolysis.

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:26 am At that point of the game, you also have to take efficiency & productivity modules into account...

True, those would help, especially the higher tier ones. However, right now I have access to Enriched Fuel Blocks from Hydrazine with just Red & Yellow Science, but would have to research several new technologies such as Silicon processing, Advanced Electronics etc. just to reach the Modules tech, and then actually producing Modules would require even more research / production lines such as Gold, Aluminium, Plastic, Oil processing, etc. none of which I have right now or need to create Enriched Fuel Blocks. Not to mention the substantial resource & energy cost for producing enough Modules to do this. In that case, perhaps Enriched Fuel Blocks is currently placed too early in the tech tree / production lines if it is not meant to be useful without all those later techs / production lines?

However, even if I advanced far enough to make all of that, assuming I still am in the phase before Blue Science, the highest tier of Modules I can make are Tier 2, and no Beacons. Assuming I use Raw Productivity lvl 2 Modules everywhere I can, and Efficiency lvl 2 Modules where I can't use Productivity, the math becomes:

It takes 11.3 MJ and 473 Hydrogen to make 1 Enriched Fuel block from 1 Solid Fuel, so a gain of 50 – 12 – 11.3 = 26.7 MJ
It takes 1.3 MJ and 473 Hydrogen to make 3.6 Solid Fuel instead from the same 473 Hydrogen + 2.8 Coal, so a gain of 43.2 – 11.2 – 1.3 = 32 MJ

So even with the best possible pre-Blue Science setup, making Solid Fuel nets noticeably more energy than making Enriched Fuel Blocks. Presumably after Blue Science, and with Beacons + better Modules the math will start to favor Enriched Fuel Blocks, but that is quite far away from when you can first start making them.

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:26 am Also, a chain that requires depletable resources like coal should probably have better results than one that does not ?

True, but at my point in the game all my non-Solar power options rely on depletable resources since I don't have Oil up yet, so making Solid Fuel from depletable Coal is currently more effective than making Enriched Fuel Blocks from depletable Coal, which seems odd. Also, in general it seems that power options that require more advanced tech and more processing / production/fluid lines should yield more energy than previous fuels, which is a pattern through most of the game.

And actually, once I do eventually get past Blue Science and have powerful Beacons & Modules to use, this idea stops being true and now the chain using depletable Coal has worse results than the renewable chain for Enriched Fuel Blocks. So in that way, it doesn't really make sense either.

bobingabout wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:00 pm Plus the fact that enriched fuel has a higher energy density per stack, however, I could look into increasing the fuel value of the fuel block.

Solid fuel has a fuel value of 12MJ
Enriched fuel has a fuel value of 50MJ
Rocket fuel has a fuel value of 100MJ

Actually, since rocket fuel is only 100MJ, it wouldn't be very easy to increase Enriched fuel without making rocket fuel seem less useful... especially considering you have to mix an entire second fluid production chain in there to make it after hydrazine.
Perhaps reduce the cost of enriched fuel itself could help a little?

Yeah, I have no idea how complicated things might get by tweaking recipes, which can in turn affect other recipes down the line. But right now it seems that pre-Blue Science, Enriched Fuel Blocks cost too much to be competitive with Solid Fuel, so perhaps if Enriched Fuel Blocks costed less Hydrazine, or if the tech for Enriched Fuel Blocks was just moved later in the tech tree, after Blue Science where you can make it cheaper? Although perhaps with a special note on the tech that the recipe is only worthwhile when used with especially powerful Modules / Beacons?

Anyways, still loving the mod, will probably try some of those cool fluid options for power for a bit now

Xenonex wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:50 pm True, those would help, especially the higher tier ones. However, right now I have access to Enriched Fuel Blocks from Hydrazine with just Red & Yellow Science, but would have to research several new technologies such as Silicon processing, Advanced Electronics etc. just to reach the Modules tech, and then actually producing Modules would require even more research / production lines such as Gold, Aluminium, Plastic, Oil processing, etc. none of which I have right now or need to create Enriched Fuel Blocks. Not to mention the substantial resource & energy cost for producing enough Modules to do this. In that case, perhaps Enriched Fuel Blocks is currently placed too early in the tech tree / production lines if it is not meant to be useful without all those later techs / production lines?

consider also that the tech levels for each fuel aren't really where I would want them...
In theory, this is how I would plan it:
Coal is no science
Solid fuel is yellow science
enriched fuel is red science
rocket fuel is blue science
nuclear fuel is purple science

now consider where things actually are
solid fuel and enriched fuel are both on red
rocket and nuclear are both on blue. (Actually, it might be purple)

they're a little bit condensed there.

But yeah, with Hydrazine being a fairly long process, and every step can take productivity modules, you can really multiply out the hydrogen on enriched fuel.

bobingabout wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:39 pm consider also that the tech levels for each fuel aren't really where I would want them...
In theory, this is how I would plan it:
Coal is no science
Solid fuel is yellow science
enriched fuel is red science
rocket fuel is blue science
nuclear fuel is purple science

now consider where things actually are
solid fuel and enriched fuel are both on red
rocket and nuclear are both on blue. (Actually, it might be purple)

they're a little bit condensed there.

But yeah, with Hydrazine being a fairly long process, and every step can take productivity modules, you can really multiply out the hydrogen on enriched fuel.

Yeah, I don't envy you having to try to sort things into that huge web of a tech tree, seems very daunting! However after you mentioned about rocket fuel, I looked into it a bit, and it seems to make Enriched Fuel Blocks even less appealing of a choice.

Right now, making 0.91x Rocket fuel from 800 Hydrogen with tier 1 machines costs 34.8 MJ, gaining 52.6 MJ. This means that as soon as you unlock Rocket Fuel tech, even without any Modules you now have an option that far surpasses either Solid Fuel or Enriched Fuel Blocks. And Rocket Fuel can be unlocked immediately upon unlocking Blue Science, without lots of intermediate techs in the way, and all the ingredients / machines needed are already available as well, unlike starting Module production.

And as far as Modules go, again, even the best Modules available before Blue Science don't make Enriched Fuel Blocks surpass Solid Fuel. But if you're using Modules at a high Blue Science level, you need around lvl 4 or 5 Modules to make Enriched Fuel Block start to surpass Solid Fuel. However using those lvl 5 Modules instead for Rocket Fuel production gets you 5.97x Rocket Fuel from 800 Hydrogen costing 40.9 MJ, gaining a whopping 556.1 MJ. Making Enriched Fuel Blocks from that 800 Hydrogen with lvl 5 Modules only gains you 98.6 MJ.

To sum things up, right now for a while after you first unlock making Enriched Fuel Blocks in Red Science, they get you less energy than just making Solid Fuel. But by the time you can get high enough in Blue Science to make the lvl 4 or lvl 5 Modules required to make Enriched Fuel superior to Solid Fuel, Rocket Fuel is already far superior to both even without any modules, and only requires researching 1 new tech.
So at no point in time is Enriched Fuel ever a good option; early on it is worse than Solid Fuel, but by the time you can make enough Modules for it to stop being worse than Solid Fuel, it is already much, much worse than Rocket Fuel, regardless of Modules.

Xenonex wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:12 am

bobingabout wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:39 pm consider also that the tech levels for each fuel aren't really where I would want them...
In theory, this is how I would plan it:
Coal is no science
Solid fuel is yellow science
enriched fuel is red science
rocket fuel is blue science
nuclear fuel is purple science

now consider where things actually are
solid fuel and enriched fuel are both on red
rocket and nuclear are both on blue. (Actually, it might be purple)

they're a little bit condensed there.

But yeah, with Hydrazine being a fairly long process, and every step can take productivity modules, you can really multiply out the hydrogen on enriched fuel.

Yeah, I don't envy you having to try to sort things into that huge web of a tech tree, seems very daunting! However after you mentioned about rocket fuel, I looked into it a bit, and it seems to make Enriched Fuel Blocks even less appealing of a choice.

Right now, making 0.91x Rocket fuel from 800 Hydrogen with tier 1 machines costs 34.8 MJ, gaining 52.6 MJ. This means that as soon as you unlock Rocket Fuel tech, even without any Modules you now have an option that far surpasses either Solid Fuel or Enriched Fuel Blocks. And Rocket Fuel can be unlocked immediately upon unlocking Blue Science, without lots of intermediate techs in the way, and all the ingredients / machines needed are already available as well, unlike starting Module production.

And as far as Modules go, again, even the best Modules available before Blue Science don't make Enriched Fuel Blocks surpass Solid Fuel. But if you're using Modules at a high Blue Science level, you need around lvl 4 or 5 Modules to make Enriched Fuel Block start to surpass Solid Fuel. However using those lvl 5 Modules instead for Rocket Fuel production gets you 5.97x Rocket Fuel from 800 Hydrogen costing 40.9 MJ, gaining a whopping 556.1 MJ. Making Enriched Fuel Blocks from that 800 Hydrogen with lvl 5 Modules only gains you 98.6 MJ.

To sum things up, right now for a while after you first unlock making Enriched Fuel Blocks in Red Science, they get you less energy than just making Solid Fuel. But by the time you can get high enough in Blue Science to make the lvl 4 or lvl 5 Modules required to make Enriched Fuel superior to Solid Fuel, Rocket Fuel is already far superior to both even without any modules, and only requires researching 1 new tech.
So at no point in time is Enriched Fuel ever a good option; early on it is worse than Solid Fuel, but by the time you can make enough Modules for it to stop being worse than Solid Fuel, it is already much, much worse than Rocket Fuel, regardless of Modules.

You know what the problem is?
I tweaked values and costs for the 0.17 migration, especially those of the rocket fuel.
I forgot to tweak the same ones from enriched fuel... it should cost HALF as much Hydrazine as it does.
(To note: I did actually make a note that I should look into it when you first mentioned it seems off, I just didn't get around to looking into it until today)

And still, 100 Hydrazine + 1 solid fuel block for 50MJ vs 160 Hydrazine + 80 dinitrogen tetroxide for 100MJ should still leave Rocket fuel as a better option, but without making Enriched fuel (from hydrazine) pointless. (the rocket fuel option requires setting up a second production chain for the dinitrogen tetroxide after all, or at the very least, tacking it into your already existing nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen feeds)

Have you looked at the Oil based Enriched fuel recipe at all?

bobingabout wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:03 am You know what the problem is?
I tweaked values and costs for the 0.17 migration, especially those of the rocket fuel.
I forgot to tweak the same ones from enriched fuel... it should cost HALF as much Hydrazine as it does.
(To note: I did actually make a note that I should look into it when you first mentioned it seems off, I just didn't get around to looking into it until today)

And still, 100 Hydrazine + 1 solid fuel block for 50MJ vs 160 Hydrazine + 80 dinitrogen tetroxide for 100MJ should still leave Rocket fuel as a better option, but without making Enriched fuel (from hydrazine) pointless. (the rocket fuel option requires setting up a second production chain for the dinitrogen tetroxide after all, or at the very least, tacking it into your already existing nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen feeds)

Have you looked at the Oil based Enriched fuel recipe at all?

No problem at all, I know trying to develop this mod must be difficult enough, even without having to keep re-doing portions whenever Factorio has an update! Funnily enough, when I first found this, my initial thought was, "Hmm maybe this would all work better if Enriched Fuel just cost half as much Hydrazine," but I never bothered saying so because I only just start playing this mod and had no idea if changing that might accidentally affect a bunch of other stuff

Some quick napkin math for the 100 Hydrazine recipe for Enriched Fuel shows that upon unlocking Rocket Fuel, using all tier 1 machines with no Modules, Enriched Fuel might be sliiightly more efficient than Rocket Fuel, but once you put even just lvl 1 or lvl 2 Productivity Modules in place, Rocket Fuel pulls out way ahead of Enriched Fuel, almost double. And since Rocket Fuel is in Blue Science, where you should already have Modules up and running, that seems very appropriate. So overall it looks like the 100 Hyrdazine recipe ought to work quite nicely!

I haven't gotten around to checking out the Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel line yet, but plan to as soon as I get up more of the fluid-based fuel system going. All very interesting stuff! Thanks again for all the work you put into your mod, and the prompt replies here!


EDIT:

Played with the fluid fuels a little bit, but can be tricky to compare with all the different ways to process Oil. Right now I've made a comparison with you starting with Light Oil, and kinda ignoring the option of burning Heavy Oil / Crude Oil since they seem objectively worse than cracking to Light Oil in terms of energy & pollution. Given that you have 10 units of Light Oil, and just using tier 1 tech with no Modules, you can choose to convert it into:

• Just burn it directly 15 MJ

• 1x Solid Fuel directly 11.68 MJ
• 2x Solid Fuel via cracking into Hydrogen with 2x Coal 14.3 MJ (22.3 MJ if you don't count the 8 MJ from the 2x Coal)
• Cracking into 350x Hydrogen 333x Hydrogen 15.078 MJ 14.985 MJ
• 0.45 Enriched Fuel via using some Light Oil cracked into Hydrogen, some for Solid Fuel, with 1x Coal 17 MJ

• 10x Liquid Fuel directly 22.74 MJ
• 0.5 x Enriched Fuel via Liquid Fuel 23.9 MJ
• 0.38x Rocket Fuel via cracking into Hydrogen 22.8 MJ
• 1 Enriched Fuel via using Light Oil for Solid Fuel and electrolysis for Hydrogen 26.6 MJ
• 1 Enriched Fuel via using Light Oil cracked into Hydrogen for Solid Fuel with 1x Coal and electrolysis for additional Hydrogen 26.6 MJ (30.6 MJ if you don't count the 4 MJ of the Coal)
• EDIT: 1 Enriched Fuel via getting all Hydrogen by Electrolysis with 1x Coal, and just burning the 10 Light Oil directly 32.2 MJ
• EDIT: 1 Enriched Fuel via getting all Hydrogen by Electrolysis with 1x Coal, and converting the 10 Light Oil into Liquid Fuel 39.94 MJ

This seems to give a nice mix of options with various advantages & disadvantages!

Converting into Solid Fuel for fuel loses some energy, but gives less pollution and is relatively simple by sticking with non-liquid fuel system.

Converting directly into Liquid Fuel is very simple, and gives a nice energy boost.

Funnily, cracking it down to Hydrogen stays almost exactly energy-neutral, even counting the electricity cost at tier 1, ALMOST breaks even, slightly losing energy but gives a greatly reduced pollution if you plan on burning the Hydrogen for fuel. Otherwise, it's much more efficient when starting out to get all your Hydrogen through Electrolysis and use your Light Oil as Liquid Fuel, or Light Oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel recipe, or burn it directly, at least until you start getting more powerful Modules.

Converting it into Enriched Fuel through the Light Oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel recipe gains you even more energy, but requires you to get to Blue Science first. However, it weirdly seems cheaper to convert Light Oil into Enriched Fuel via making Solid Fuel from the Light Oil and Electrolysis for the Hydrogen, compared to just simply going Light oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel. Even more interestingly, this process only requires Red Science to do, and it will get even cheaper still once you start adding Modules due to the many steps, but the trade off is that it is a much more complicated production chain. (NOTE: See EDIT 2 below, without at least mid-tier Modules it's actually even BETTER to use Electrolysis for getting Hydrogen instead, and just turn the Light Oil to Liquid Fuel for burning, or use the Light Oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel recipe, or even just burn it directly, rather than making Solid / Enriched Fuel by cracking the Light Oil down to Hydrogen, so long as you have a little Coal to spare.

Rocket Fuel at first glance seems lackluster by being slightly worse than Enriched Fuel, and also requiring Blue Science. However, the long production chain benefits a lot from Modules, and will quickly start beating all other options once you start adding even low lvl Production Modules.

All in all those are some interesting choices, with the only odd one out being how oddly effective the "Enriched Fuel via using Light Oil for Solid Fuel and electrolysis for Hydrogen" option is compared to the higher tech of "Enriched Fuel via Liquid Fuel", but "Enriched Fuel via Liquid Fuel" can still be useful due to how profoundly simple the production chain for it is. EDIT: The Light Oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel recipe is actually even more useful early on, as it's probably the most efficient use of Light Oil until strong enough Modules allow "Light Oil cracked to Hydrogen" to overtake "Hydrogen from Electrolysis".

Thanks again for all the effort put into this mod, it's quite fun tinkering around with it!

EDIT 2:

The error I corrected about the energy loss when cracking Light Oil into Hydrogen (at tier 1 machines), means that at least early on, it's better to convert Light Oil into Liquid Fuel, or even just burn it plain, and is cheaper to use Electrolysis for getting Hydrogen.

Additionally, so far I had just been comparing all the non-oil based recipes against each other, and then all the oil-based recipes against each other. I just started comparing the oil-based against the non-oil-based recipes, and it looks like at least starting out, for making either Solid Fuel or Enriched Fuel Blocks, it is significantly more efficient to get all the Hydrogen needed through Electrolysis, and then just burn the Light Oil directly, or turn all the Light Oil to Liquid Fuel to burn, or even turn that Liquid Fuel into Enriched Fuel on the side. Even if you have excess Light Oil just sitting around, trying to use any of the Light Oil to make Solid Fuel or Enriched Fuel via ANY recipe that involves cracking Light Oil down to Hydrogen gets you less energy compared to just burning it (or using the Light Oil > Liquid Fuel > Enriched Fuel recipe) and then using Electrolysis for the Hydrogen needed for Enriched Fuel instead. The main trade off being that you need to use a little bit of Coal, and a build a bunch more Electrolyzers. Later on with enough mid-level Productivity Modules, this changes and then using Light Oil > cracked to Hydrogen becomes superior to Electrolysis for making Hydrogen / Solid Fuel / Enriched Fuel Blocks.

Another small tidbit is that whether you use Electrolysis or not, it seems a bit more efficient to use any Hydrogen early on to burn directly rather than make it into Solid Fuel, at least at the start until you start getting Modules up and running well. Making Hydrogen into Enriched Fuel Blocks is good idea right from the start, however. Looks like a nice complex assortments of options for fuel with various upsides & downsides!

Holy EDITs !
----

Just a minor thing, but am I the only one bothered by these errors scrolling by in the terminal when launching the game ?
(Sorry in advance if this issue comes from non-bobs mods.)

Xenonex wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:50 pm Another small tidbit is that whether you use Electrolysis or not, it seems a bit more efficient to use any Hydrogen early on to burn directly rather than make it into Solid Fuel, at least at the start until you start getting Modules up and running well. Making Hydrogen into Enriched Fuel Blocks is good idea right from the start, however. Looks like a nice complex assortments of options for fuel with various upsides & downsides!

Yes, Part of the early game "Push" in the current versions of the mods is that you need oxygen to make steel, so you need to use electrolysis and have to figure out what to do with the excess hydrogen. The "Best" thing to do is to start experimenting with entities that burn it as fuel such as using it to power "Oil" Boilers, and if you actually look into what you get from either method, burning it directly is clearly on top (Only 10% pollution, and a reasonable fuel value)

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:17 am Holy EDITs !

I didn't notice them either until you pointed it out.

BlueTemplar wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:17 am
Just a minor thing, but am I the only one bothered by these errors scrolling by in the terminal when launching the game ?

Code: Select all

19.463 Loading mod bobmining 0.17.6 (data.lua)
20.087 Loading mod bobpower 0.17.10 (data.lua)
20.136 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:155: Technology bob-heat-pipe-1 does not exist.
[...]
54.688 Loading mod bobtech 0.17.6 (data-updates.lua)
54.697 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:24: Technology personal-roboport-equipment-2 does not exist.
54.697 Script @__boblibrary__/technology-functions.lua:131: Technology personal-roboport-equipment-2 does not exist.

(Sorry in advance if this issue comes from non-bobs mods.)

I'm looking into it, looks like the first one is due to the call to add the prerequisite is done BEFORE the technology is defined. it wasn't an issue however because it was also done somewhere else.
Looks like the errors with the roboport equipment are simply because I have a function call to add prerequisite of the old tech name and new tech name called straight after each other, no checking to see if either exists, just do both.
Since the function itself performs checks, the only harm is that it logs an error message.

Deuterium fuel cells seem mental in terms of balance. They're much, much easier to craft compared to thorium or uranium and provide over 15x the fuel value. Extremely broken by any definition.

Acetylene wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:39 pm Deuterium fuel cells seem mental in terms of balance. They're much, much easier to craft compared to thorium or uranium and provide over 15x the fuel value. Extremely broken by any definition.

Worry not, I've been reworking the nuclear fuel cell stuff. They're going to be more difficult to craft in future.

Awesome! I've been avoiding using them otherwise I'd feel like I was cheesing things a bit.

Rocket control units not being craftable in an electronics assembling machine is probably a bug.

Hi. New guy here.
I went through the conflicting mods list and narrowed it down to the electronics mod, but here's the error script:

Failed to load mods: Error while running setup for recipe prototype "advanced-circuit" (recipe): Duplicate item ingredients are not allowed (solder exists 2 or more times)


Mods to be disabled:
- bobelectronics
- pyhightech
- bobassembly
- bobelectronics
- pyhightech
- pyrawores

Not completely sure why it's showing two of some mods (I checked, and I have one of each installed)
I even went into the sprite folder and solder only shows up once on the bobelectronics mod file, so it beats me on what's causing this.
Any help is appreciated!

Euroseph wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:26 am Hi. New guy here.
I went through the conflicting mods list and narrowed it down to the electronics mod, but here's the error script:

Failed to load mods: Error while running setup for recipe prototype "advanced-circuit" (recipe): Duplicate item ingredients are not allowed (solder exists 2 or more times)


Mods to be disabled:
- bobelectronics
- pyhightech
- bobassembly
- bobelectronics
- pyhightech
- pyrawores

Not completely sure why it's showing two of some mods (I checked, and I have one of each installed)
I even went into the sprite folder and solder only shows up once on the bobelectronics mod file, so it beats me on what's causing this.
Any help is appreciated!

It's due to bobelectronics and pyhightech both adding solder. Do you have pycoal touched by an angel. It's the compatibility mod for pymods