Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:32 am
by _aD
JoshLittle wrote:but btw: looking at the stuff you could fight with you fought good
(but also funny to see that you mocked over military 4 but a minute later you were happy to have destructors - which also had to be researched one time like piercing shotgut is now ;) )
Pfft, who needs those pointless capsules and guns when you just creep out with laser turrets? </satire>
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:34 pm
by JoshLittle
I honestly had my problems at the first (considerable) bases (20-25 spawners on the ore I needed so badly). It was a hard fight gaining tile after tile until one spawner after another was in reach of the lasers. Power Armor MK2 makes life easier (...also for construction bots )
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:53 pm
by Xterminator
DaveMcW wrote:
Xterminator wrote:Even power armor MK1 would help. Do we have... yeah we have MK1 unlocked which still takes 100 processing units and currently I don't think we're making any.
Spoiler
processing-units.jpg
Deep. I found out after the video that we did have some. Silly me :p
JoshLittle wrote:
Xterminator wrote:..At this point there is not much to do..
You really don't know what to do? What about basic stuff like
a complete defense for the main base, durable defense for the outposts, getting more ore sites and oil, cut off steam engines after running completely on solar, ...? Just that basic stuff that waits to be done since half an infinity..
but btw: looking at the stuff you could fight with you fought good
(but also funny to see that you mocked over military 4 but a minute later you were happy to have destructors - which also had to be researched one time like piercing shotgut is now )
Yeah I suppose I could of done those things. But I figure if biters aren't coming into the base, then our defenses are fine. :p but your right, I could of at least gotten rid of steam power.
And yeah piercing rounds is a good thing to have, just figured we might want to get the research done so we can at least start making level 3 modules, sense it takes a while to make em.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:57 pm
by JoshLittle
Xterminator wrote:Yeah I suppose I could of done those things. But I figure if biters aren't coming into the base, then our defenses are fine. :p
But that is the point. They ARE coming in from time to time.
If they are able to break the last layer of walls, then the defense is not strong enough (and the base mostly has only one layer) (= minimal defense). If you can guide big groups of biters to the base and don't have to worry about them entering the base (some walls crack, but not the last layer) then it is a good defense (=maximal defense).
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:38 pm
by Xterminator
JoshLittle wrote:
Xterminator wrote:Yeah I suppose I could of done those things. But I figure if biters aren't coming into the base, then our defenses are fine. :p
But that is the point. They ARE coming in from time to time.
If they are able to break the last layer of walls, then the defense is not strong enough (and the base mostly has only one layer) (= minimal defense). If you can guide big groups of biters to the base and don't have to worry about them entering the base (some walls crack, but not the last layer) then it is a good defense (=maximal defense).
Good point sir. If no one has done it, I'll ramp up defenses when I play today.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:12 pm
by Junion
Watching all of you play lately..i have noticed there is one thing slightly lacking in base. I don't think this is really a spoiler..but I spose I'll stick it behind anyway, this isn't really based on just one episode..but due to everyone's episodes lately. Though I will admit watching infectums he just posted is what really brought this to my attention, so it might be spoilery enough from his episode.
Ok it might need the spoiler afterall
Weaponry seems to run out a bit quickly, ramping up production of weaponry may be a good idea..mostly capsules. Perhaps at least just upgrade the buildings currently making them. If all of you want to continue making enemy base runs that is, someone could sit out hitting enemies on their turn..but I feel that is a touch unfair. Of course if you just feel too frustrated dealing with enemies, you could take time off, and spend some time expanding base production so things are made faster, and someone else will have the resources you don't use.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:47 pm
by -root
Xterminator wrote:
JoshLittle wrote:
Xterminator wrote:Yeah I suppose I could of done those things. But I figure if biters aren't coming into the base, then our defenses are fine. :p
But that is the point. They ARE coming in from time to time.
If they are able to break the last layer of walls, then the defense is not strong enough (and the base mostly has only one layer) (= minimal defense). If you can guide big groups of biters to the base and don't have to worry about them entering the base (some walls crack, but not the last layer) then it is a good defense (=maximal defense).
Good point sir. If no one has done it, I'll ramp up defenses when I play today.
And look who is reading the spoilers.
That's a paddlin'.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:12 pm
by JoshLittle
-root wrote:And look who is reading the spoilers.
Did you read the spoiler to confirm he read it? (I think the comment is also valid without the spoiler - and the spoiler isn't also that much spoiling)
@fish (ep 60): I think the perfect stash would be the old left alone stone miner in the west. Not on the way looking around and rarely touched by anyone yet
btw: I completely forgot where the barrel is
Nice circling of the biters inside the poison. But the way you do it now feels a bit like powering a children roundabout with a scooter
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:10 am
by JoshLittle
Oh infectum. That kind of episode where it is not possible without a bit of blaming
(And for those who hate long spoilers: I think it is needed here.)
First of all: Shame on you to have the right intuition but sucking up the
artifacts
anyway
Why it was bad
There could be a reason and there was. If you don't know it, try to hold your fingers back. It's like there is a hidden magnet that says "Infectum: All artifacts belong into the SP4". And the said thing is: You are the first one who destroys his own future experience with a good armor. Artifacts are good for three reasons. SP4, different kinds or armor and modules 3. And they are rare. Really, try to resist to put it all into SP4. You will profit from it later on.
The second SP4-assembler was ok (now is the time when more and more artifacts arrive), but the third.. Again like some episodes ago, total useless. At the end all thre had nothing to do. So they will run out of artifacts that the third isn't worth the stuff (specially productivity 3 after it is researched and produced). Speed is not the problem, the amount of stuff is (you remember?). And a hint for the SP4 assemblers. If the grab from the same chest, there is no problem with dividing
It was really sad to see the combat. You made you down yourself, so I don't have to say anything downrising, but perhaps you can watch it again step by step to see the big mistakes you made. And then you can avoid them the next time:
Mistakes and Hints
If a nest has worm, turn around. It doesn't matter if it is in the desert, or it seems to be alone or the biters seem weak: Turn around. Start with nests without biters. If you can handle the them, take biger nests without worms. If you can handle them, take small nests with a few worms, .... You don't have to make this progress toooo slow (like 10 episodes with just small nests), but you learn the steps you need. And if you threat the biters right, the worms break you down.
Don't waste time with the biters. If a group of biters runs into your direction, don't shoot them and run back. Because when you killed them all the next wave of biters already spawned. Thats why you don't get any closer to the base. It is hard in the moment because the armor is too slow, but the goal has to be to circle around the biters, go for the nests and THEN kill the remaining biters. You don't achieve anything by just killing the biters. And that is why you should start with nests without worms. If you can manage to handle the biters, then you can concentrade what you have to do in the next few moments with the worms.
For the worms: Worms are the only real thread. Even with a high power armor a goup of worms can be fatal. They can be killed, even without a crutial danger of dying, but it is not like a farming of even big nests with douzens of spawners where you can just walk in and only watch not get stuck in a group of biters or in trees. If there are many worms you have to awake and watch out of distances. Don't shoot worms. A few worms can be killed, but if you are in reach of 5 or more worms, only use poison. Poison is the big weapon against worms. Go in reach, fire 1 or 2 poisons to the nearest worms (good if multiple worms are inside the poison after it) and go out again. After the poison is gone, the worms are too (sometimes you will need a second round to kill them completely with poison). Don't waste the poision outside the base (at your first attack all the poison was around the worms, but they were rarely hit by it). Biters run just through without a huge impact on their health (poison is good agains them if you circle them inside the poison - a trick for the future). That was one of your big mistakes. You used everything outside the base (poison, distractors) and that is why it is wasted. Your first attack was really nothing. The poison outside did no damage at all and the distractors where shot down easily by the worms.
Destruction bots: The big plus with non-static capsules is the ability to circle them around your enemies. Simple experiment: If you spawned destruction capsules and you run to the base, the robots will go further, where you don't have to go. They are on a long elastic band. You can use this movement best by cicling. At some point you will get an expert in handling with them, where you move yourself more to move them as because of yourself.
Follower robot count: As you placed the third destructor capsule at 16:25, the count got up to 14 and one was destroyed. That is because you can have 14 followers at the same time according to the current state of research in the follower robot rount. On capsule spawns 5 robots, so if you max it out to 14, one is destroyed imidiatly.
At 17:03 you did the first direct poison hit to a worm. That was good. But enough worms were left. At 17:36 you poisoned the same area again, even the worms there were already dead. That was bad. Go for living worms.
Then you had 10 (going to 9) followers and 17 capsules left. You used 3 capsules. It's not just wasting resources. It is throwing them out of the window, because you can't get more than 14. 9+5 would be just one capsule. The other 2 were just they never existed (and you did it a few times more...)
Look at around 18:00 what you have done so far. 3 of 3 spawners already exist and 8 of 11 worms are living. You needed 2 1/2 minutes, used 6 destroyer capsules, 20 destractor capsules, 14 poison capsules and 23 piercing shotgun shels. No one blames you if you need more weapons, the point is that your current style wasts nearly everything of it. That is what you realized yourself and why you are frustrated. Don't be frustraded, try to use the stuff where it is needed and you will have success.
18:17: "We've got one more worm to kill". No, there were 7 more. That is a HUGE difference. At this point you were to close. If you get that close and you take the hits, make shure to poison every worm. That could have been the point to kill all worms with poison (beside right at the beginning in the car).
18:45: That poison just hits 2-3 worms and not even perfectly. If you place the poison, click on the worms or inside of multiple worms. Then they are all in reach of the poison. If you click somewhere else you just can get lucky to hit them a bit. But you can only click on them when your green circle reaches them what is also the range they need to attack you. Thats why it is ok to go in and take some hits (better not from 11 worms a once), but then you have to place the poison right. That is what i meant with having an eye on the distances.
19:02: Double direct poison hit for one worm. He will be gone for shure after the poison disapears (29:24, you see it). This could have been the result with all worms a minute before.
19:26: 1 kill because of a worm-hit, 11 followers, 12 capsules. What do you have after 5 more capsules?
19:35: The first of three spawner is killed. But not because of the waste of capsules, but because you shot at it. Piercing shotgun is very effective to spawners. Two shots from a not too far distance and it is gone (destroyers can also help or do it alone, but not if they are just sitting behind you because you don't manover them)
19:42: Dead because of around 7 worm hits (some worms twice). You were to close and just shot in the air instead of going against the worms with poison.
Don't worry. You will get better. I started by fighting myself with construction bots and laser turrets tile by tile against a big nest. That wasn't fun to see too. With power armor MK 2 the things get much easier. Just came back from a outside tour to place some radars. I took every artifact and came back with thousands of them. But if I go the same route again it will hurt a lot, because THEN every nest will have worms too. If a bad player like me can do it, you will get there too. So remember: Don't put every artifact in that damn SP4-assembler
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:00 am
by ible
The second spoiler in JoshLittle's post is a great example of constructive feedback.
Infectum, I highly recommend you review the combat footage while reading through his analysis.
Aside from that. I used turret creep for several weeks because I sucked so bad at combat. It took me a while to get a hang of fighting biter bases with capsules.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:01 pm
by HeilTec
Boogieman14 wrote:... there appears to be a pretty strong SEP field in this coop
Saw this in a video about time. Searched for the image and made a copy.
Procrastination.png (172.16 KiB) Viewed 7267 times
This clearly explains the SEP effect in this series, since past, present and future 'me' are three different persons.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:32 pm
by Xterminator
HeilTec wrote:
Boogieman14 wrote:... there appears to be a pretty strong SEP field in this coop
Procrastination.png
This clearly explains the SEP effect in this series, since past, present and future 'me' are three different persons.
Ahaha so true! Love that post mate.
As for Infectum's fighting, I think Josh Little's second spoiler was really good, that is some good constructive criticism, rather than just insults.
But Infectum if you read this, don't feel too bad about being bad at combat right now. Everyone started out being bad when they first started, and I mean I can't count the number of times I completely failed at trying to kill a base. Hell anyone who watched my last several videos in this series knows I died like 3 or 4 times trying to kill a base. :p
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:34 pm
by JoshLittle
@xterminator (ep 62):
I was not the guy who told you just to rip up the steam engines. But if I reread it in regard of what you did, I can't just blame you for just misterunderstand what I meant. Perhaps "cut off steam engines after running completely on solar" was not clear enough. I meant: Do something to increase the solar power and THEN rip the engines down. You probably understood "Solar already took over so the steam engines are not needed anymore". But this was not what I meant. And even if you think it is the time that solar is strong enough, I would highly recommend to just "cut off" the steam engines to test at first the solar strength before ripping it down. For solar I would like to lead your point of view to some old posts of me in this thread according to solar layouts. There was also a only-accumulator-dedicated-layout. I think I also wrote some spoilers how to see what (solar panels vs. accumulators) is needed the most. But you all just get stuck with the one combined layout after you and root inserted it parallel a while ago. Ok, don't worry about it, your choice. (
Why take existing engines from existing chests if you also can start a new chest?
Why take existing stone from existing miners into existing stone smelters if you can also set it up new entirely?
Oh, and I almost forgot my
Foretellings
old: It became true
new 1: Someone will say that trains are fun (again)
new 2: Nobody will use my solar layouts.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:27 pm
by Junion
So watching this episode brought up yet another thought.
I'll spoil this one, but just so its easy to ignore if you want to ignore it. But this is more or less an overall suggestion, and nothing based directly on this episode, but just a general thought I've had.
shhpoilers
Someone needs to run through and be 'mr. fixit' too much in the base is poorly understood, and stuff has been changed so much some parts don't work due to other fixes, due to other fixes, due to other fixes, and so on. I figure doing this would take an entire episode, or at least most of one, which is why nobody has done it. But the base really needs a good look over for issues. And to actually figure out where the flow of everything goes, as well as where some nearby untapped resources may lie (either in the way of factories not being productive..or the stone mine in the base ).
Now watch several people read this..and spend their episodes looking over the entire base in order to fix everything, leaving us with 6 in a row spent on 'optimizing the base' . Yes I know there are 5 people only..and I suggested they spend an episode doing it...somehow it'll still wind up being 6 in a row
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:04 pm
by JoshLittle
@junion: One episode? I think even a full round of 5 episodes would hardly be enough. At least I would take that long. (yeah, I'm a bad player, I know )
So if they really only want to go to rocket defense, it could be to late (i would say then there will be less than 100 episodes). But if they want to extend to a full research of follower counts (don't even know how much robots are possible for count 20, never need more than 40-45) the fun would be extended a bit
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:26 pm
by Junion
Well I'm considering the fact they can't do large sweeping changes, unless they make something obsolete. And they can't build something just in order to make something else obsolete.
A lot of the major issues would require a complete re-working of the factory..getting everything under a single idea. But part of the point of this to showcase various ways of thinking all working on the same factory. So they can't fix major issues that arise due to people having differing ways they handle production, or in some cases not quite understanding how things work. They can make small changes to improve what is there.
I mean lets be honest...I think a few of the players, if asked to fix the factory, they can do anything they want..would say tear the whole thing down and rebuild from the ground up. But that isn't the point of the game and the series. And this isn't a knock against the players...having different playstyles, and feeling pressured to do something constructive within 20 minutes will do that to you. Heck my factory I'm playing on right now..I havn't had any pressure whatsoever to build fast, be productive or whatever. And still I want to, to a degree, just tear it all down and remake it. Mind you its my first factory and I've just learned so much I can see where some of my choices were silly..experimental builds didn't work out, or whatever.
But back to the point, this is why I suggest spend an episode, find where there are issues with what is currently there and fix it. The main point would be to just make sure everything is working..and to get familiar with what is where. I think that should take an episode or two at the most.
But that's just my view.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:22 am
by ible
There isn't much need to spend an entire episode figuring out the general operation of everything.
I have an excellent understanding of the base from watching the videos.
The base has changed very little over the last 10+ episodes
And all the players are allowed to watch the videos after they play.
(...also for construction bots 
))
