Factorio Forums

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:29 pm some time ago py nerfed hard the speed of them it was 2 energy needed now it is 5
also he thought it was too cheep but i needed to use iron to begin with if i was truly cheep i could have made water>soil>sand for like 0 cost but those builds are larger so i used sand extractors also they were in good ration in many chains

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:55 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:29 pm some time ago py nerfed hard the speed of them it was 2 energy needed now it is 5
also he thought it was too cheep but i needed to use iron to begin with if i was truly cheep i could have made water>soil>sand for like 0 cost but those builds are larger so i used sand extractors also they were in good ration in many chains

It's still cheap, frankly. Sand extractors are great at saving space, as well as reducing water/tailings logistics load. I'm more than happy with my current iron expenditure on the sand extractors I have set up already. If you think it should be cheaper, mod it to make it cheaper.

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:00 pm speed!
it was 20/s or something like that now it is 8/s or so

pyanodon wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:24 pm Thanks for the explanation. YEs, py mods are about choices. The way it was designed its impossible to NOT make almost everything from "nothing". The easy way to get tailings and nexelit from it is the answer for other people comments here. He is called rare, because you cant mine it from ore patches, only by tailings, mega mines and small other stuff. I watch your streams and other people too, its a very good info for me and i collect lots of feedbacks. You are VERY technical (almost as Immortal_sniper on my discord), love math and such to fine tune your base while other people just do it at will and deal with the surprises when they happens. One thing is for sure, i will never make everyone happy. Changes and stuff will come to my mods and its natural to people not be glad for some of them.

About PA, well...its a good easy way to get small amounts of required material, i personally like it...even some users just ignoring an entire chain such as diamonds. They are making choices and its good to see. Maybe in the future, i balance it more etc to be an alternative for those dont have much kimberlite deposits in their map.

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:10 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:00 pm speed!
it was 20/s or something like that now it is 8/s or so

So now it's three buildings versus one to get a similar output. Doesn't change my argument. Still saves enough space and logistics work versus using soil extractors/washers to be worth the iron expenditure. Again, don't like it? Mod it. I think it's fine, so I'm not touching it. 20/s from one machine is truly a bit much, honestly, for a single machine pre-modules and beacons.

pyanodon wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:24 pm Thanks for the explanation. YEs, py mods are about choices. The way it was designed its impossible to NOT make almost everything from "nothing". The easy way to get tailings and nexelit from it is the answer for other people comments here. He is called rare, because you cant mine it from ore patches, only by tailings, mega mines and small other stuff. I watch your streams and other people too, its a very good info for me and i collect lots of feedbacks. You are VERY technical (almost as Immortal_sniper on my discord), love math and such to fine tune your base while other people just do it at will and deal with the surprises when they happens. One thing is for sure, i will never make everyone happy. Changes and stuff will come to my mods and its natural to people not be glad for some of them.

About PA, well...its a good easy way to get small amounts of required material, i personally like it...even some users just ignoring an entire chain such as diamonds. They are making choices and its good to see. Maybe in the future, i balance it more etc to be an alternative for those dont have much kimberlite deposits in their map.

Resource patches are effectively infinite, but you have to relocate them every so often. With the map being effectively infinite in size, no resource can be considered truly "rare," it's just a matter of how far away the patches are from your base and the resources required to do the logistics work. Ground borers offer a way to maintain a static "mining" site for ores which can be scaled, at the cost of a large amount of space and number of buildings, for those of us who'd rather not keep relocating our mining patches who have gone sufficiently far in the tech tree for this to be an option.

For now, I will continue using my mod reverting back to lubricant so that I can set up some chromium mining to solve a somewhat-immediate issue with my stream base. I will then set up drilling fluids and transition to the new system in as renewable a way as I can manage just to show that it can still be done despite needing drilling fluids. Well, I guess it gives a reason to set up and use guar, anyway.

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:04 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:44 am do you have one for sand extractors too?
if not ill steam the code and modify it

Don't know what you'd want from sand extractors. Those recipes just need iron sticks as it is and are arguably more exploitable than any of the ground boring recipes.

pyanodon wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:19 am Its like, your opinion man. For me, getting ores with ground borer was pretty cheaty, i saw people filling warehouses with that because a single oil processing setup can generate coal gas and lubricant easy and fast enough to keep a groud borer working 100% of the time. Ground borers are for get resources your map is lacking, way too far from your base or if you wanna turtle. Not an easy step to promote you to have infinite ores. A partial chain of nexelit for example can make you almost 50 plates with only one run of ground borer. Niobium, Mo and Nexelit are made to be rare and valuable resources.

About your complain over acetylene and zipirs..pyAL will bring alternatives.

Such is the life of video game developers. Balance is hard stuff. That said, your arguments against infinite ore resources is undermined by the fact that there are already methods of getting infinite supplies of most other resources (coal and everything coal is used for, such as coke, tar, coal gas, syngas, power, and everything those products are used for, on top of things like O2 and H2). Solving the puzzle of obtaining resources infinitely has been part of the charm and fun of this mod set, whether or not you intended it to be.

The argument of lacking resources is moot on maps infinite in size (for all intents and purposes). With even the previous coal gas and lubricant recipes, the physical space required to set up ONLY a yellow belt of output (yellow belts are NOT a lot of material in the grand scheme of things when it comes to ore) was incredibly huge, acting as a deterrent for those with biters on to actually set it up in the first place.

Even with biters enabled, I think I'd probably still go through the effort of setting up distant outposts for resources lacking in the immediate area around my base rather than set up drilling fluid for ground boring. Heck, even WITHOUT biters enabled, without modding back lubricant, I still would have found it easier to start using rails and going long distances to get what I'm lacking than use ground borers.

As for wanting nexelit to be rare, sorry to break it to you, but those willing to set up a large enough production facility can make infinite amounts of tailings to convert to nexelit. You've probably seen my setup already turning Fawogae into coal gas + tar/heavy oil(/lubricant). Well, tar can be directly converted to tailings in quenching towers, plus you get lots of wonderful saline water and flue gas and even a bit of ore "byproducts" of choice. Since nexelit truly is free anyway, I really see no need to EVER use ground borers when they require drilling fluid. However ...

As much as I've complained about drilling fluid thus far, I already have a concept in my mind on how to get all three fluids infinitely, or at least semi-infinitely or self-perpetuating, with sufficiently large setups for power, water, iron plates, and copper ore + plates. I haven't done the math to check if the iron + copper could be self-perpetuating, or perhaps if I could use byproducts of the quenching tower iron + copper recipe from tar (which is infinite via mushroom coal) to make what's needed to sustain the system.

Of course, to do what I'm thinking about would require being in a base that's post-circuit 2, which as you've said, very few ever get to anyway, as it would make use of the copper plate to silver plate particle accelerator recipe (silver is needed in the ethylene glycol chain for drilling fluid 2 and 3).

While I'm on the topic of the particle accelerator (though this doesn't quite relate to PyPH per se), if you're worried about folks cheating your intended chains, Kimberlite processing can be fully bypassed, as well. With sufficiently large space for power generation and graphite production (which, again, is "free" from mushroom-based coal, and power is infinite as well), one can get as many diamonds as they could ever desire from particle accelerators converting graphite to diamonds without the need to ever set up any of the ingredients used in the kimberlite chain such as grease.

• I dunno why you would make silver in a PA. Silver is easy to get out of lead ore.
• Making diamonds in a PA at scale is honestly rather prohibitive compared to the kimberlite chain, not because of the graphite but because of the proton donors. Making boron with the non-PA way will devour all your refined syngas and HCl, while making it with a PA will consume even more crystallographic substrate (and can only be done after you research Nanotech anyway). And crystallographic substrate demands rayon and a lot of it.

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:07 pm it was a 1:1 for many builds that required sand
regarding speed crushers can do 40/s or so but stone >sand is 16:9
the 20/s was in a mk4 too
u forgot to keep in mind the mining cost :
Pb Ti require acetylene and that is expensive
niobium require drill heads so it is not so cheep ti get compared to iron

Blokus wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:16 pm
A bunch of good points here, but I will make a couple comments:

• I dunno why you would make silver in a PA. Silver is easy to get out of lead ore.
• Making diamonds in a PA at scale is honestly rather prohibitive compared to the kimberlite chain, not because of the graphite but because of the proton donors. Making boron with the non-PA way will devour all your refined syngas and HCl, while making it with a PA will consume even more crystallographic substrate. And crystallographic substrate demands rayon and a lot of it.

While we're on the subject, PA vanadium is still objectively the best way to make vanadium. The FE vanadium chain consumes a profoundly unreasonable amount of iron ore dust, not to mention all the other crap.

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:59 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:07 pm it was a 1:1 for many builds that required sand
regarding speed crushers can do 40/s or so but stone >sand is 16:9
the 20/s was in a mk4 too
u forgot to keep in mind the mining cost :
Pb Ti require acetylene and that is expensive
niobium require drill heads so it is not so cheep ti get compared to iron

I cannot speak to the balance of higher mark level items as I'm only just getting Mk 02 stuff now. I'm not too concerned about ratios being changed.

After complaining myself about acetylene being expensive in terms of coal cost or power and space cost through Tholins (for reference, Tholin-based acetylene is the more power-efficient method taking coke fuel value into account), I have come to the conclusion that acetylene is ultimately just power and space, both of which are infinite for all intents and purposes.

As for drill heads, ground boring iron and chromium was a very net positive output of drill heads, making them effectively infinite as well, since coal gas and lubricant via mushroom-based coal was also infinite.

Blokus wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:16 pm
A bunch of good points here, but I will make a couple comments:

• I dunno why you would make silver in a PA. Silver is easy to get out of lead ore.
• Making diamonds in a PA at scale is honestly rather prohibitive compared to the kimberlite chain, not because of the graphite but because of the proton donors. Making boron with the non-PA way will devour all your refined syngas and HCl, while making it with a PA will consume even more crystallographic substrate. And crystallographic substrate demands rayon and a lot of it.

While we're on the subject, PA vanadium is still objectively the best way to make vanadium. The FE vanadium chain consumes a profoundly unreasonable amount of iron ore dust, not to mention all the other crap.

Yes, once lead is being ground bored, it should provide plenty enough silver to feed the drilling fluid for both itself and all other boring operations. I was considering the initial amounts needed to get it going if you don't want to (or can't) set up standard lead mining to get the system moving.

Refined SynGas can be obtained via tholins, so it's just power and space + space for power. The coalbed gas recipe is a smaller footprint but requires some zinc in the form of filtration media.

HCl is also free from H2 and Cl2 by saltwater electrolysis. Saline water is actually easily made via tar in a quenching tower with the copper and iron or borax and niobium recipes. As I've previously mentioned, tar is effectively infinite due to coal being effectively infinite from mushrooms (and wood, for that matter, just a bit less efficiently). It's really just building count, space, and power (or space for infinite amounts of power).

Actually, by that same logic, everything in the Rayon chain can be obtained renewably and infinitely. Propene for carbonyl sulfide has a tholin recipe. Sulfur has many ways of obtaining it, though one renewable way is converting tar to heavy oil and cracking it down to petroleum gas.

Substrate would, therefore, need nickel, moly, and chromium, all of which could be ground bored infinitely. Boron would also need aluminium plates (bored), acetylene (just power, effectivelvy), coke (infinite via mushroom-based coal), water, hydrogen, and borax via raw borax, which can be bored and/or obtained in small amounts via the tar to saline water, tailings, and flue gas recipe in a quenching tower.

Since substrate itself can be essentially made freely given enough space and power, there would also be the option of doing the fine carbon dust to boron PA recipe once you get access to making fine carbon dust at Nanotechnology tech, as it needs proton receivers, which are made by adding sulfur to substrate, which is also basically infinite.

I fully agree on the PA-based Vanadium. You can see how the above would make doing that even more appealing.

Blokus wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:26 pm There are definitely some places where you technically can build infinite but the scale is genuinely problematic. The idea of feeding boron with refined syngas from tholins sufficient to make a yellow belt of diamonds is definitely one of these.

Anyway, I see what you were going for now, you were describing a way to build a "pure infinite" base.

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:46 pm

Blokus wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:26 pm There are definitely some places where you technically can build infinite but the scale is genuinely problematic. The idea of feeding boron with refined syngas from tholins sufficient to make a yellow belt of diamonds is definitely one of these.

Anyway, I see what you were going for now, you were describing a way to build a "pure infinite" base.

*cough*PyBlock*cough*

The whole basis of Seablock-style maps is to generate everything from water, basically. As it turns out, the pY suite is very conducive to this style without too many changes. Rare earth ore is one of the very, very few things that can only be gained by resource nodes in normal pY, which is why it gets its own method of production in PyBlock.

I was applying the premise of this style of play to a standard map, imagining a factory spread of the whole of the planet (or at least a big portion of it)! In my current stream playthrough, I have been approaching new factory sections from the perspective of trying to avoid relying on resources that will run out, essentially moving towards a Seablock/PyBlock mindset in base pY. I guess I just haven't cared about how big the setups are. 160 fawogae plantations into 4 yellow belts of coal is becoming my "standard factory block" scale of thinking these days.

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:02 pm
you must have a really good PC then
also i gave it a thought things that are not acquirable by water or power atm are:
rare earth ; uranium for the heavy formium in circ4 ; maybe Zn but there might be a sooth or PA way to get it

and yes atm we can nearly get everything from water BUT the setups needed are simply so massive it is unpractical

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:18 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:02 pm
you must have a really good PC then
also i gave it a thought things that are not acquirable by water or power atm are:
rare earth ; uranium for the heavy formium in circ4 ; maybe Zn but there might be a sooth or PA way to get it

and yes atm we can nearly get everything from water BUT the setups needed are simply so massive it is unpractical

I would hope my PC is really good. The parts list is on my Twitch channel.

Uranium ore has a particle accelerator recipe from gold. If you mean Zinc for Zn, it can be ground bored. Soot does have a zinc option, as well as a gold and silver (and aluminium, copper, iron, and lead). There is also a zinc plate PA recipe from copper plates.

If rare earth ore had some method of getting it outside of resource nodes, there is also a way of getting uranium ore as a byproduct in the rare earth processing chain.

As for size and practicality ... I'll take that challenge for now.

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:18 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:02 pm
you must have a really good PC then
also i gave it a thought things that are not acquirable by water or power atm are:
rare earth ; uranium for the heavy formium in circ4 ; maybe Zn but there might be a sooth or PA way to get it

and yes atm we can nearly get everything from water BUT the setups needed are simply so massive it is unpractical

I would hope my PC is really good. The parts list is on my Twitch channel.

Uranium ore has a particle accelerator recipe from gold. If you mean Zinc for Zn, it can be ground bored. Soot does have a zinc option, as well as a gold and silver (and aluminium, copper, iron, and lead). There is also a zinc plate PA recipe from copper plates.

If rare earth ore had some method of getting it outside of resource nodes, there is also a way of getting uranium ore as a byproduct in the rare earth processing chain.

As for size and practicality ... I'll take that challenge for now.

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:16 pm i checked the stream
and yes u have a very powerful PC
i have some advice :
1 there are a few places where u void coalgas why not use gas burners for a few extra MW?
2 also why not filter the flue-gas to ash? to get more ash the sort it to get more oxide and some coal dust ?
3 i cant find the mod list
4 why not use a warehouse as a balance& buffer?
5 u can use transfer accumulators to minimize the use of the fuel-oil plant
6 why feed powerhouses coal when u have coke? coal>coke is energy positive and also accepts modules that are orange
7 it is great to see someone else that poweres the power with solar

otakushowboat wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:19 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:16 pm i checked the stream
and yes u have a very powerful PC
i have some advice :
1 there are a few places where u void coalgas why not use gas burners for a few extra MW?
2 also why not filter the flue-gas to ash? to get more ash the sort it to get more oxide and some coal dust ?
3 i cant find the mod list
4 why not use a warehouse as a balance& buffer?
5 u can use transfer accumulators to minimize the use of the fuel-oil plant
6 why feed powerhouses coal when u have coke? coal>coke is energy positive and also accepts modules that are orange
7 it is great to see someone else that poweres the power with solar

1) I prefer consistent sources of "stuff" in general, power being chief among those. Sure, I could "vent" spare into power, but what if I'm no longer making more than I need? Well, there goes that power. That would suck if the base was susceptible to feedback loop "power death spirals."

2) I am doing some filtering. Again, going off the preferring consistent sources of "stuff," unless I specifically make ash for oxide and dust, I won't bother trying to rely on it. If I want oxide, I'll set up something that will specifically give me oxide. If I want coal dust, I'll set up something specific for coal dust. If I want ash, I'll set up something specific for ash. If that means venting/burning/pitfalling byproducts of other processes, so be it. That's just how I play.

3) You are the first to point out that the link to the stream schedule page on my website isn't on the Twitch channel (it also has the mod list). Oops. I've stuck it in the About panel for now. Will need to make a new "Stream Schedule" panel.

4) By the time I notice production is insufficient to keep a buffer full, it's already empty. That's how I notice in the first place most of the time. Buffers just delay the inevitable in my view. I only use them to have spots to grab stuff for handcrafting.

5) I could hook it back up if I miscalculate and truly need that power again, but otherwise I'm transitioning away completely from the fuel oil power. I'd rather rely on my perpetual sources.

6) I'm assuming you're referring to the 2x2 chunk power blocks that get fed mixed belts of coal and coke. I did not make the original blueprint for this, but it is posted in this forum. I do know, however, that the DDCs in the blueprint block produce precisely enough coke for the combustion mixture recipes and not any extra to also fuel the power houses. However, there is more than enough coal from mushrooms to feed the DDCs, so it gets used to fuel the power houses instead. Also, the DDC process making the coke for the power houses produces less fuel value worth of units of coke than the amount from coal put in (A loss of 10 MJ per craft). There are better ways of doing self-perpetuating power, but this is a convenient and compact blueprint I can just place down basically anywhere and have it just work.

7) It's a great way of preventing positive feedback loops from killing power. I transitioned to this after dealing with a 0/0 issue.

immortal_sniper1 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm
1 it would probably be like 10-20MW for the entire base barely noticeable but i am greedy and i had to point that out
2 3 the power will more or less run all the time and in the end it will be like <5/s , again i am greedy and i use every little thing if possible
4 u got it wrong ; if u use loaders u can use a warehouse as a balancer that gets a buffer as a BONUS not as a main feature
7 YES i learned that too the hard way BUT sadly people learned that the hard way at Chernobyl too
6 well in my standalone power setup i use H2 from water and coke from water but made in HPF ; maybe we can design a hybrid setup for increased performance

otakushowboat wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:03 am The PyPH update this evening may have a slight oversight for borax and niobium. I don't know if this was intended, but the code that replaced coal gas with syngas and refined syngas was removed for these ore types.

Also, a point of note for folks, this update also flips the output fluid boxes of the updated ground boring recipes, just flip the machines around to put the recipe back on any borer's you're currently using.

pyanodon wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:04 am Thanks for report. It will be fixed asap.

otakushowboat wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:08 am

pyanodon wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:04 am Thanks for report. It will be fixed asap.

I only really noticed because I had to test my new brute-force method of replacing drilling fluid with lube on these recipes for Py Borer Reversion and noticed my borax borers kept giving me the "can't mix fluids" message regardless of rotation.

pyanodon wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:09 am
i edited the answer. It may be a issue with your mod. Not found missing fluids here.

- RECIPE("mining-nexelit"):replace_ingredient("lubricant", "drilling-fluid-2")
- RECIPE("mining-borax"):replace_ingredient("coal-gas", "syngas"):replace_ingredient("lubricant", "drilling-fluid-1")
- RECIPE("mining-niobium"):replace_ingredient("coal-gas", "refsyngas"):replace_ingredient("lubricant", "drilling-fluid-3")

+ RECIPE("mining-nexelit"):remove_ingredient("lubricant"):add_ingredient({type = "fluid", name = "drilling-fluid-2", amount = 100})
+ RECIPE("mining-borax"):remove_ingredient("lubricant"):add_ingredient({type = "fluid", name = "drilling-fluid-1", amount = 100})
+ RECIPE("mining-niobium"):remove_ingredient("lubricant"):add_ingredient({type = "fluid", name = "drilling-fluid-3", amount = 150})