mmmPI wrote: Fri May 09, 2025 12:15 pm
Thank you, I hope this can be the start of a more productive conversation.
It's difficult to explain all my thoughts, and they are distributed in different spots. One of the challenges in talking about this is that I don't know what the appropriate scope is for any proposed change, so I've provided a bunch of options - some of which are contradictory because I wouldn't implement them all at the same time. And also my thinking has evolved over time. I am conscious of trying to suggest the least destructive changes that would require the least work to implement and damage as few playstyles as possible, but it's just not possible to avoid breaking things, which is why I think it's important to speak as early as possible.
I also don't like criticizing unless I've thought through the problem and can offer a solution. Even if the solution isn't viable for one reason or another, my hope is that at least it provides insight into my mindset, and is therefore valuable feedback.
So, starting at Gleba, the learning curve is way too steep in my opinion, but the actual mechanics are good once you understand them. My solution to this would be to introduce some bio-production on Nauvis, probably starting at green science, or at least unlock the ag tower and tree seeding early. By doing this you could at least introduce the ag tower and seeds in a low pressure environment, and when they aren't needed for any critical production chain, and when you already have a working factory to fall back to and don't have to worry about power etc. This would be two less new things to learn on Gleba (ag tower and seeds).
If there was some biological stuff on Nauvis - let's say a fruit - it would have to be processed without the biochamber, which means without the nutrient requirement. This would make it simpler than the stuff on Gleba, and would be a way to introduce a spoiling production line without the extra burden of nutrients/spoilage (the fruit would still spoil, but you wouldn't need to worry about nutrients also). And whatever recipes that existed also wouldn't require bioflux and could be as simple as a transformation of a single spoilable fruit into a non spoilable end product.
You could also introduce the concept of different soils on Nauvis. You wouldn't have access to biter eggs, but there is surely some simple recipe that could work, such as spoilage + landfill + fish - or maybe it requires the end product of fruit production. Alternatively you could allow biter eggs to be harvested from nests after you destroy them, which is similar to how egg rafts work as a non sustainable source.
So then the question is, what would this new bio production be used for? This is where my ideas on quality come in. I think there are issues with the current system, which you've read elsewhere. You could use the products from Nauvis bio production in recipes for higher quality goods. This would alleviate the problem of not having the recycler, and in my opinion it would be more interesting to have more complex crafting chains for higher quality goods, rather than mixed production lines and recycler loops, which is kinda of a repeat of the mechanics on Fulgora.
Doing it this way (different recipes) would also make quality science more appealing, because you could be rewarded with a higher science output at the cost of a more complex factory, and it would enable a productivity/quality combination that currently isn't possible. I think this would be more interesting than the productivity research we have now, and more UPS efficient than just scaling.
Also it would remove the issue of having to account for the higher tiers of quality even if you don't have access to them. Also you could remove the weirdness that exists with items such as quality holmium ore.
I've thought about how I'd implement this system - do you make quality raw materials or quality buildings directly. The challenge is to minimize complexity and the number of new recipes as much as possible, and it would take more thinking to arrive at a conclusion. But I'm learning toward producing the raw materials, as that's the most flexible way to do it. You would still need 4 new recipes for iron/copper/plastic etc. but this would solve one of my other issues, which is a lack of progression on the different planets. If you could, for example, produce higher quality tungsten with a more complex crafting chain, that would give you more to do after you're exporting science.
I also think doing it this way would make quality more friendly for new players, because it's kinda a trap at the moment. It's very easy to jam your factory, and not just once but 3 times (because of the 3 quality researches). It would also provide an avenue for progression through more complex crafting chains that aren't strictly necessary to finish the game. You could, for example, make legendary items very difficult to make.
If you wanted, you could get a lot of mileage from a single fruit on Nauvis, because you could have the fresh fruit, spoiled fruit, fresh "mash/jelly" product and spoiled product, giving you 3-4 new items. You could also change the fish > nutrients recipe to be nutrient positive and then use nutrients in some recipes. But basically, you could teach most of the basics of Gleba before you even arrive. It would also give more reasons to import biochambers to Nauvis.
And you could take these concepts even further, such as being able to produce non-Nauvis products on Nauvis through a complex crafting chain. For example, you get some acid from the Nauvis fruit and mix it with iron ore to get a small amount of tungsten.
Another example would be increased productivity through more complex recipes. For example, instead of (or in addition to) a flat productivity bonus on buildings, you instead get more end products if you create a fluid from spoilable fruit and use that in the recipe in addition to the normal ingredients.
I hope this gives better insight into where I'm coming from. I like many of the systems in space age, but I don't think they're integrated well.
EDIT: and I should add, making a mod isn't an option for me. I don't have time, and I don't know how to program.