Factorio Forums

Eulenberg wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2026 2:17 pm

meganothing wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2026 1:42 pm

Eulenberg wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2026 4:21 am ...

I dont spread any misinformation, i clearly say this is my opinion/conclusion of what is going on right now, if that wasnt clear im doing it now! So tell me then why didnt we get that recycler mod earlier, why dont let the people disable quality, when they asked for it 1.5 years ago, why let them wait all that time?

Wasn't there an explanation in the FFF where they announced the change? Yes, found it:

FFF wrote: " This was somewhat intentional, when designing 2.0 and feeling out the balancing, we knew some things would be tougher if you didn't have quality items, such as Space platform design. Having a few high quality solar panels, accumulators, or such, made a big impact on the effectivity of Platforms.

The other main sticking point was that you need the Recycler from Quality, on Fulgora, so not having Quality mod enabled means you couldn't progress on Fulgora. "

In my opinion making a mini-mod of the recycler is almost a hack and surely wasn't a change that the perfectionists at Wube accepted lightly. But it seems they felt it necessary to provide a setting for all players who don't like quality but use it because of some compulsion because it is there.

i think there were plans back when 2.0 to further revisit the quality mod, if im not wrong there was a FFF talking about that is a long term side project of kovarex that existed before 1.0 released even, but never finished, and that it was rushed together to get shipped with 2.0/SA. Arguments given on why we cant disable quality was not just the dependency, they claimed it was part of the indented SA "experience".

Which is what they seem to refer to in the FFF-exerpt I quoted: "This was somewhat intentional, when designing 2.0 and feeling out the balancing, we knew some things would be tougher if you didn't have quality items, such as Space platform design". They had to design the difficulty to be acceptable to new players.

but since the focus is shifting toward new projects its not worth to fix a system that needs a ground up revisit, not just a nerved casino or removed lds shuffle, these are just symptoms, not the reason. so they decided to throw a couple band-aid fixes at it and give people the option to disable it, so "you can disable it if you are not happy".

It seems stuff like "wube thought it needs a ground up revisit" is your interpretation and much-repeated theory. I can imagine that they would be a lot more happy if quality were universally loved, but similar to the fluid problem I suppose there is no single solution that will make everyone happy.

I don't see the need for a redesign, at least not for me. I like quality.

But at the end, the price of the quality mod is included in the space age fee, and everyone who paid for SA deserves to get version that if worth enabling all its features,

Really?

In the space age fee there is also a mac and a windows version included. If everyone who paid for SA deserves to use them as well Wube has to send a mac machine, a and a windows licence to me, right?

Okay, that was a silly argument, just for the humor. But what about PvP features in a PVP/PvE mixed game when I only want to play PvE, or vice versa? I payed for the PvP features but don't want them. Would they have to redesign those PvP features so that I would think them worth enabling, in your opinion?

Or, I sometimes play survival games, mostly with friends, but the heavy grind of pure survival games is too much grind for me. Do the developers of Valheim for example have an obligation to make all the grind-heavy features into grindless features for me because I payed the full price. And if yes, what about the target group of Valheim players who want those grind-heavy features?

Going back to Factorio, I never used mines in the game. I might, eventually, but if not, according to your theory, a partly refund would be the correct thing for Wube to offer me, right? Or do they need to redesign the mines until I like to use them? What then with players who like the mines how they are now? Do they get the refund after the redesign ?

According to steam statistics a large percentage of Factorio buyers did never start a rocket in 1.0. Is that a failure of the game, or is it that player tastes are just too varied so that no game can be fully fitted on every single player? Wube would be bankrupt if they had made a guarantee that players will like all features or money back.

tldr; Expectations that a game has to be liked in its entirety by every single player are quite impossible to fulfill.

as you said i think too they went didnt take it lightly, but why are ppl want it to be disable-able so badly to begin with? when you just could not make a quality module ever, to begin with disables it effectively too? no part of the vanilla game force you to make a quality module ever, or have build in quality. one part being mods for sure, but i doubt that the majority of ppl who want to hard disable it are mod creators who make bigger space age overhaul mods that dont work with quality, its ppl who think its a fundamentally flawed system that does not archive what it suppose to be, to make a clear standing point that they dont like it as a whole and they are annoyed by the fact that the game reminds you about its existence at many points during a run.
Its not like they buffed the entities when you disable quality or anything, its just a hard disable option.
For me personally i get the bitter taste of the quality mod as a early access game that at some point was abandoned, and the devs spending time with new projects rather than, giving the costumers the game(in this case mod) they paid for and fixing its issues and ironing out the flaws.

When I first tried out quality I got to the conclusion that it wasn't meant for producing quality research bottles, except for players who thought bobs mod is for wussies . And legendary is something that is as much a carrot for endgame in itself as it is a solution for places where space is of utmost importance. Doing quality light to just build a few machines for a leaner spaceship is easy to do if you think you need it. Doing quality full throttle is also possible. I haven't built a spaceship to the shattered planet yet, but up to Aquilo spaceships without quality are also possible which supports the optional character of quality that Wube promised.

It looks like the perfect feature for a sandbox game like Factorio. And for me personally I can say they gave me what I paid for. I can sympathise with you, but I see it realistically. When a developer does a game no. 2 he can either make the same game again, which pleases part of the players but will bore others or he can change the game in some ways or add new stuff and that will please part of the players and disengage or disgruntle others, even if the new stuff is good.

mmmPI wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 12:41 pm This or maybe just players that didn't care at all realizing something they liked was removed and they express their displease lol, i don't see many people say it's great that casino are now removed, i think because those people already didn't used casino in the past, and thus there are not many, the decision seem unpopular to me and i don't see a need for another framing but hey at least you can't say it's a last minute change because this and LDS were reported very early at the release of 2.0, it's on the contrary, one of the most delayed balance change ever lol, so much so that people started to grow accustom to them and now miss them.

Sure. But don't tell me that the players who will miss them don't have options. They can stay on older version if achievements are such a big point for them. They can add a mod and just ignore achievements or measure achievement success for their own peace of mind. There are no practical options for new players or players not well informed to avoid an OP method.

Games should be balanced at default. If there ever was a game with a "balanced" option you had to turn on to get a balanced game I don't remember it.

It's great space casino is now removed

meganothing wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:56 pmGames should be balanced at default. If there ever was a game with a "balanced" option you had to turn on to get a balanced game I don't remember it.

There are occasional games designed to be difficult, but because there are so many people that complain about skill requirements in games, they call the easy mode "normal" and make it the default, and the balanced game gets labeled "hard" and has to be manually selected.

meganothing wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:56 pm There are no practical options for new players or players not well informed to avoid an OP method.
Games should be balanced at default. If there ever was a game with a "balanced" option you had to turn on to get a balanced game I don't remember it.

I believe this is non-sensical, there was never anything forcing space casino or LDS shuffle on anyone. Especially new players lol, and now LDS shuffle is still there, so you are fine with it ?

And i can assure you still today there are players playing without beacons or robots or quality x) and their factory are to their liking !

evanrinehart wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:58 pm It's great space casino is now removed

You're the only one and you're saying this after being prompted to do so without any arguments to support what looks like just said for contradiction, i think you are prooving my point here more than the opposite x)

Hurkyl wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 6:07 pm There are occasional games designed to be difficult, but because there are so many people that complain about skill requirements in games, they call the easy mode "normal" and make it the default, and the balanced game gets labeled "hard" and has to be manually selected.

ALL competitive game are designed to have the same kind of difficulty you are matched so the game gets harder the more you win ! so i'm not sure what you are talking about, maybe the solo games ? you like artificial difficulty ? you think factorio is a survival game or a rogue like ? or more like a sandbox where the complexity arises frome one's decision where some players wants to have it nice and relaxed ?

I don't get your point here , do you need someone else to label the game hard to feel a sense of achievement ? because to me it's perfectly fine to enjoy the game any way i want, and it doesn't disturb my fun that other players can have it their way too. I believe the game balanced around the space casino was liked by players, some who used it and some who didn't. If you weren't using it already, i'm not sure exactly how it affects you positively in your games. You were one of those players who hated space casino but still built some every game because it was too good ? x)

mmmPI wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 9:04 pm

Hurkyl wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 6:07 pm

meganothing wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:56 pmGames should be balanced at default. If there ever was a game with a "balanced" option you had to turn on to get a balanced game I don't remember it.

There are occasional games designed to be difficult, but because there are so many people that complain about skill requirements in games, they call the easy mode "normal" and make it the default, and the balanced game gets labeled "hard" and has to be manually selected.

I don't get your point here

Yes, that seems to be a pretty common occurrence.

Hurkyl wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 9:50 pm Yes, that seems to be a pretty common occurrence.

I guess it's because you explained yourself poorly, most of the time i don't have this problem, or at least it can be solved when pointing at what seem to cause the difficulty in communication, i tried to offer an opportunity for you to rephrase but apparently it wasn't clear enough ? You don't agree with the statement i made about difficulty being achieved in multiplayer competitive game, otherwise it's kinda artificial ? You think removing the ability to use space casino made the game "harder" ? ( therefore better ? ) You were one of those players who couldn't enjoy their game because you had to make a space casino to win and you didn't like space casino ?

I feel your point about difficulty is missing the target, not only it's incorrect in general to consider "some games are designed difficult" , but it's unrelated to the "last minute changes" i feel, most of them making the game easier, like the extra landing pads, space platform interlogistic, ability to choose color wire of output, i mean almost ALL of the changes are making the game "easier" by your metric, it's sort of inconsistent to praise that one change that makes the game "harder" because of it making the game "harder" and this being presented as the goal and oh it's so sad developpers can't make "hard" game anymore.

I feel it's particularly missing the target also because in case of balancing it's easier to increase difficulty with mods than reduce it, Pyaodons, Space Exploration, Krastorio ect, all adds stuff to do that players are free to add for themselves, in that cas it's optionnal, and it works fine, there's no reason to make the base game on the same logic, on the contrary making it easier allows to reach a broader audience, and only with skills can you master ALL of the challenges, but there's no reason i can see to advocate for complexity "for the sake of it". The enjoyable one you already choose it for yourself imo ...

mmmPI wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 10:07 pm

Hurkyl wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2026 9:50 pm Yes, that seems to be a pretty common occurrence.

I guess it's because you explained yourself poorly, most of the time i don't have this problem, or at least it can be solved when pointing at what seem to cause the difficulty in communication, i tried to offer an opportunity for you to rephrase but apparently it wasn't clear enough ?

I wasn't interested in clearing it up. Last time I noticed you misunderstood me, we spent a whole forum page or so with me explicitly telling you I wasn't talking about what you were talking about and was uninterested in discussing your topic, and you insisting that no I was secretly discussing your topic all along. And that wasn't the first time we've had similarly bad interactions.

I'm not particularly interested in spending another forum page with you insisting I have some secret ulterior motives and can't possibly mean the words I said in reply to the thing I quoted taking at face value.