Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:36 pm
by Xterminator
BurnHard wrote:
ssilk wrote:... this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep....
Sorry, no... Don't want to insult anyone but.. I really watched now a couple of episodes.. And IT HURTS so much... Really... The density of fail, on so many levels... Can't say much more, really hope new players get their inspiration from somewhere else.
Yes I would agree there aeena LOT of fails in this series. But this series was never meant to be a teaching series or go as perfectly as possible. It was started in my mind, merely for our and your entertainment, as well as a bit of an experiment. And to be honest the amount of fails and mishaps is what makes this so fun to watch and even play.
As for new players learning from this... I would agree that perhaps for a new guy it would be better to watch an actual instructional series, but that by no means says they can't learn anything from this. Seeing the mistakes and fails happen, and then later seeing how someone else fixes them is a great way to learn in my opinion.
If you only did things perfectly every time (this doesn't just apply to Factorio) and never made mistake, you would never learn anything.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:06 pm
by DerivePi
Except for early game when the biters are all small, I have not been successful in engaging nests without the advantage of speed. In mid game, this requires the car. As I understand from others, there is a possibility to turret creep and I've even seen an example of carpet bombing with the use of robots and landmines. However, it takes time for defenses to grind down the medium and big biters and you need to provide that time by running away from them or hiding behind a wall. I imagine that the (successful ) offensive part of this playthrough is around the corner and I'm looking forward to seeing some various examples.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:58 pm
by micomico
BurnHard wrote:
ssilk wrote:... this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep....
Sorry, no... Don't want to insult anyone but.. I really watched now a couple of episodes.. And IT HURTS so much... Really... The density of fail, on so many levels... Can't say much more, really hope new players get their inspiration from somewhere else.
You're watching it wrong.
Don't facepalm, just laugh at the hilarity of it all.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:27 pm
by JoshLittle
To answer a lot of the last posts: I think the why-part is not really explained. And the series itself isn't designed to explain it. That is also why I commented the "mistakes". Not as it was assumed to insult the players, but to give the possibility to compare the own impressions (as player or viewer) with the ones of the one viewer that comments a lot (= me). But everybody has the possibility to make his own pieces for the "why".
Only from watching it is a bit hard for beginners to see what was really the factor of a solution and what not
Some words for infectums copper solution
As I said last time: The speed is not the problem, the amount of stuff is.
So solve it, the first step is NOT to speed up the belt, but to fill the gaps (= to increase the density on the belt). Only three inserters at the station were working. At the end he made five of them go. THAT was a big step, but he was not happy about it, also the last state of the belt was the best until it existed since the train station. But to get to it, it is NOT neseccary to speed the whole belt up to red or even blue.
One slow belt can be filled by 6 fast inserters, three for each side. That is why in the station only 3 inserters worked. In average four worked before the changes (3 in the stations and the three miners that are as fast as around a fourth). So at the end of the belt can only arrive what is put onto it at the beginning, no matter how fast the damn thing is. 4 * 2 (~double speed) * 1/2 (~half density coming with the bigger speed while the amount is still the same) is still 4. But to get 6 inserters work to fill the slow belt would add 50% of the throughput of the belt (6 / 4 = 150%). Then the belt could stay slow. Only at every corner one tile of red belt is needed, because otherwise the density would decrease in corners with the same speed as the rest of the belt.
Only if there is more stuff to be put on the belt as the 6 inserters and therefor the belt could handle, there is a need to increase the speed of a belt. I usually do it not by replacing a slow with a fast belt, but to set a second slow belt beside it (and only merge it at the destination if the buildings are set around only one line of ore-belt) and upgrading only this single endpart with a higher speed.
But away from this issue (because it was mentioned in the other comments):
@alex:
is there a reason why you build the outpost not as compact as possible? This thing will need some protection, and you increased the distances. Like even if you build it in only one direction, this would perhaps be like 2x rail (1x2 normal tiles), inserter from wagon to chest, chest, inserters from chests to assembler, last pipe on the height of the highest pumpjack, and the hight of the pumpjacks on the dots (storage tanks could fit between the pipes or beside the assembler (more then 1 is not needed at last if the amount drops in direction of 0.1)
@root: This is how the SP4-production should look like.
One assembler with the highest available productivity modules.
And also the why was right - more or less
"Speed is not the problem, the amount of stuff is"
@infectum:
Your combat "sucked" because you missed one point: You need more time to kill the biters as they need to respawn. Your goal in a combat should be to erase at least one spawner with every attack-wave you make.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:18 pm
by Infectum13
ssilk wrote:I think due to the different playing styles and abilities of the players, this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep.
Because it is about how to see things (or better: how to overseeing things) that needs to be done and then how to fix them (or break them and what then happens).
It's my daily soap opera.
thank you. it's been a lot of fun!
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
This guy is so amazing he's too good for a series like this -.-'
Yes, we agree.
I'm glad! I would hate to get to a point where I wasn't wanted
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:20 pm
by Infectum13
BurnHard wrote:
ssilk wrote:... this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep....
Sorry, no... Don't want to insult anyone but.. I really watched now a couple of episodes.. And IT HURTS so much... Really... The density of fail, on so many levels... Can't say much more, really hope new players get their inspiration from somewhere else.
Well..it can teach you what NOT to do on a factory. There has also been a TON of great tips as well...maybe not necessarily from me though, lol.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:21 pm
by Infectum13
zlosynus wrote:
BurnHard wrote:
ssilk wrote:... this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep....
Sorry, no... Don't want to insult anyone but.. I really watched now a couple of episodes.. And IT HURTS so much... Really... The density of fail, on so many levels... Can't say much more, really hope new players get their inspiration from somewhere else.
Agree, there are tons of stupid decisions in this factory. But this series is about fun and confusion, and it is great for enjoyment. For instance, today when Infectum was trying to attack biters, I was having so much fun watching him fail horribly in that .
OH ya...I was way in over my head.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:22 pm
by Infectum13
ssilk wrote:
BurnHard wrote:
ssilk wrote:... this is currently the best series to learn to play Factorio really deep....
Sorry, no...
BurnHard, this is your sight and mine of course too (as said this is my daily soap, I learn only how fun multiplayer could be and sometime I was at a point where I would gave some $$$ to take the mouse now, but that is the fun part of this), but yes, beginners can learn a lot, because they don't see, what we see and will wonder, how they didn't see that coming.
You learn from the failures, not from making it right.
IT HURTS so much... Really... The density of fail, on so many levels...
It's pure fun, seeing Infectum failing to reach the biter nest, where the solution was so near. I'm sure he will look into the solution of others and will learn to master this.
What I haven't learned from the other members of the Hydra Dilemma, I've learned from reading comments.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:25 pm
by Infectum13
Junion wrote:As a newbie, who has watched this series because its funny...(honestly this is my first post..)
In fact.
Current episode spoilers
I actually saw the way to fix the speed issues ahead of time, having only played the demo and watched this series mind you, I already knew some of the changes he should make...and was honestly yelling at my screen telling him not to do some of the things he caught on his own afterwards. I'm currently thinking Infectum's answer to the copper plates is still not complete, and to be honest I think the train could use unloaders on both sides. As well he needs to catch all the points in the current belt that are still yellow. I figure the belt might also be too long, or just needs processing set up at where it unloads...since the trains stop is there anyway.
Finally something I don't know how to do..but I know I'll want to learn first thing..and Infectum needs to learn as well. Is how people put down the 'ghost' versions of things, in order for the bots to make. Setup would have gone a lot faster if he just told the bots to replace all the yellow belts with red ones, instead of placing red belts and waiting for bots to bring him more. And if you see this Infectum and you decide to place the second set of unloaders (if nobody else has done it) I'd honestly suggest you figure out how to do it, and do it in this method, keeping in mind that I don't think fast splitters are stored, so that'd never get placed.
And honestly for the series..I feel sorry for some of the people who need to fix everyones mistakes..but it's been a hoot to watch..even the breakdowns...Fish going on a murderous rampage, and everything. And I'd like to thank all 5 of you for an entertaining and educational (on the game) experience .
If it hasn't been done, I'm going to work on that. I think to put down ghost images, its Shift-Left click or right-click, but I keep forgetting to use it.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:51 pm
by JoshLittle
@fish: Aren't you tired of the repeating intros? The viewers that already know the series know what you have to say there and those who arrive the first time at a hydra dilemmy video with a high number on it are probably smart enough to read a description or to go to the first video to be telled what it is about. [.....] Ok, maybe there are enough lazy people out there who wouldn't be that smart, so go on
With your train:
What do you want to do? The time would in no case be enough to throw full barrels out and get them back emptied in time. The same goes for the filling. So maybe a scenario with three big groups of barrels (one group to fill, one group to empty and one group in the train that merges with the group that get filled) and a long time at the filling and a short time at the emptying would be better to not block the track for the other train. Because in the current setup the train runs empty and also waits a lot at the signal. If they have the same (longer) time at the outer station, then they would synchronice (distance from switch is nearly equal)
-------
btw.. My foretellings:
old:
Sulfar chest is empty. I could say I knew it and... I say it . But even I thought it would last longer.
new:
The hunt for new oil is not over yet. At least the untouched field in the west has to be used.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:02 pm
by -root
Fish's title makes me happy. I'm hoping that means I don't have to play around with trains
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:25 pm
by ssilk
Junion wrote:replace all the yellow belts with red ones, instead of placing red belts and waiting for bots
A general rule of thumb: Before you replace belts with faster versions, try to place a second belt in parallel. This has always more throughput (not speed, but throughput), then the next higher tier! ( https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... ts/Physics )
A series of parallel belts is unbeatable in throughput, even trains cannot hold against that. So if you have enough space use it. https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... uble_Belts
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:41 pm
by DaveMcW
ssilk wrote:A series of parallel belts is unbeatable in throughput, even trains cannot hold against that.
Hmm. A double track is 6 tiles wide including signals. You can run at least 0.5 wagons/sec with proper signal spacing. That is 500 ore/second. You will need a bunch of stations at the end though.
You need 50 transport belts to achieve 500 ore/second. Even with perfectly straight express belts you still need 17.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:23 am
by -root
DaveMcW wrote:
ssilk wrote:A series of parallel belts is unbeatable in throughput, even trains cannot hold against that.
Hmm. A double track is 6 tiles wide including signals. You can run at least 0.5 wagons/sec with proper signal spacing. That is 500 ore/second. You will need a bunch of stations at the end though.
You need 50 transport belts to achieve 500 ore/second. Even with perfectly straight express belts you still need 17.
shots fired!
so, if i'm reading this right, silk is wrong about something?
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:14 pm
by ssilk
DaveMcW wrote:
ssilk wrote:A series of parallel belts is unbeatable in throughput, even trains cannot hold against that.
Hmm. A double track is 6 tiles wide including signals. You can run at least 0.5 wagons/sec with proper signal spacing. That is 500 ore/second. You will need a bunch of stations at the end though.
You need 50 transport belts to achieve 500 ore/second. Even with perfectly straight express belts you still need 17.
Hm. Ok, of course I meant that belts are unbeatable in that case/situation/for this map: Bringing the items from a not to far mining outpost to the factory.
But let's play it through: To be able to unload a wagons every two seconds (= 500 items/sec or 30,000 items/minute) you need:
- Trains. Numerous trains. Depends on distance. It is not easy to calculate. I estimate a bit: Initially you need minimum 4-5 trains with 2 lokos and 6-8 wagons each and then for about every 500 tiles of distance you two extra trains.
- Space. I think 4-6 train stops/stations on each side, this is because of the crappy routing, which makes it in practice impossible to guarantee, that the next train will really use the empty station. Because of the waiting rails in front and behind of it, you need about 200-250 x 1000 tiles only for that.
- Miners: for 30,000 items / min you need about 170 miners. Which take alone a space of 1530 tiles. Not to count the needed space for belts, power, chests for storage...
- Which take alone 459 megawatt. Not counting the unload/load costs of the inserters here.
I stop here, cause this is so ridiculous gigantic, that it won't make sense to do explain it more.
Well, if you manage to bring that to run and show me a map I will accept the challenge. Unless that I keep saying, that for this map/game there is no reason at all to use trains.
But they are fun.
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:40 pm
by JoshLittle
I also would say, that the problem in this belt vs. train challenge is not to run many trains in short distances, but to load and unload them AND to have enough places to mine the ore. If you really can fill douzens of trains in a secondly following, than the map is really too easy
My own train network is growing, but they feel still much doughy. Not that fun everybody claims to have. The speed is really the only advantage they have. But it feels that only distances over around 5,000-10,000 tiles are worth the additional effort to set them up (others may set this min-distance much shorter).
Re: The Hydra Dilemma - A Coop Factorio Playthrough!
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:36 pm
by ssilk
I think this distance begins with 500 tiles. The reason is, that above that the number of items parking on belts becomes really a problem.
500 tiles multiplied with about 6 items per tile = 3000 items = about a chest full of stuff, which cannot be used.
And the second is the needed time for the transport: 500 tiles รท 1.875 tiles/sec = 266 secs = about 4.4 minutes. Or about 5 minutes which is too long.
And then the needed amount of resources: To make it fast you need exorbitant more resources for the faster belt types.
I'm hoping that means I don't have to play around with trains 
Unless that I keep saying, that for this map/game there is no reason at all to use trains.