The addition of sodium nitrate is pretty new, actually... maybe 2 months back? Used to be you had to make Nitric acid on the side with catalysts exclusively.Zyrconia wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:46 amOh wow, thank you!blahfasel2000 wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:07 am Supplement it with nitric acid from nitrogen from air separation. Nitric acid is the easiest acid to come by literally out of thin air (it requires some metal catalyst unless you want to do some massive blue algae farming, but that only consumes a tiny fraction of your ore).
I missed that you can create Nitrogen Monoxide (the input to dioxide) from Green Metal catalysts too. And I do have blue algae.
Unfortunately I set up a large-ish Florite ore setup I don't need only for it to output extra Sodium Nitrate. I'll start using the method you described.
You need a basic laboratory mk2. Keep both Mk1 and Mk2 around since they don't upgrade into each other regarding what they can research.khalismur wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 2:34 am The "Automation" research costs 64 x (1x "Red Science Analyzer" + 2x "Basic Datacore") and I'm not able to complete it.
I have access to all Basic Technologies 1 and their labs, which can be researched in the "Tech Archive 2". However, I'm not finding a research building able to accept both "Red Science Analyzer" and "Basic Datacore" and thus can't research "Automation". None of the specialized laboratories nor the "Tech Archive" will accept "Basic Datacore" and the "Basic Laboratory" won't accept "Red Science Analyzer"...
What am I missing? I have completed a bob+angels game in the past and didn't encounter this issue.
I see it. So I have to craft and research all the basic "processing", "energy", "warfare", "enhancements" and "logistics" to unlock the laboratory to have electric assemblers....? Thanks for the help I see the way but I find that very weird. So much electricity use researching that just to have an electric assembler feels quite off.Zyrconia wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 11:03 amYou need a basic laboratory mk2. Keep both Mk1 and Mk2 around since they don't upgrade into each other regarding what they can research.khalismur wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 2:34 am The "Automation" research costs 64 x (1x "Red Science Analyzer" + 2x "Basic Datacore") and I'm not able to complete it.
I have access to all Basic Technologies 1 and their labs, which can be researched in the "Tech Archive 2". However, I'm not finding a research building able to accept both "Red Science Analyzer" and "Basic Datacore" and thus can't research "Automation". None of the specialized laboratories nor the "Tech Archive" will accept "Basic Datacore" and the "Basic Laboratory" won't accept "Red Science Analyzer"...
What am I missing? I have completed a bob+angels game in the past and didn't encounter this issue.
Upload your save file to our github and link that post. I can start writing that script to replace fluids so it uses their default temperature everywhere. However, without any answer of the devs, I wont drop the temperature below 1000° as it does work on maps that do not have this issue. I do however want to put a fix up such that all the fluid has the same temperature everywhere.brysamo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 3:26 amSo it seems like the issue has something to do with the default max temp of the game being 1000°Clovely_santa wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pmMy best bet, with keeping the past updates in mind... Are the different fluids in the tanks for example, are they the same temperature? My guess would be they are a bit too cold, and when the train starts filling up, the tank is draining, so new hot fluid enters and the temperature can rise, when it bumps the temperature, the train stops filling? If this is the case, you should report this to the base game, as it is meant to equalize the temperature, so the fluid in the fluid wagon should rise as well, instead of stop filling. I did change the temperature on the smelting fluids to represent real life melting points, as requested on /r/factorio a while back.brysamo wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:41 pm So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).
1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)
I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).
Honktown has some input on a potential fix from within the mod:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84303&p=493161#p493161
It should be the final handcraft. After that you're out of the grey analyzer area, which is handcrafting part.khalismur wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 1:23 pmI see it. So I have to craft and research all the basic "processing", "energy", "warfare", "enhancements" and "logistics" to unlock the laboratory to have electric assemblers....? Thanks for the help I see the way but I find that very weird. So much electricity use researching that just to have an electric assembler feels quite off.Zyrconia wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 11:03 amYou need a basic laboratory mk2. Keep both Mk1 and Mk2 around since they don't upgrade into each other regarding what they can research.khalismur wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 2:34 am The "Automation" research costs 64 x (1x "Red Science Analyzer" + 2x "Basic Datacore") and I'm not able to complete it.
I have access to all Basic Technologies 1 and their labs, which can be researched in the "Tech Archive 2". However, I'm not finding a research building able to accept both "Red Science Analyzer" and "Basic Datacore" and thus can't research "Automation". None of the specialized laboratories nor the "Tech Archive" will accept "Basic Datacore" and the "Basic Laboratory" won't accept "Red Science Analyzer"...
What am I missing? I have completed a bob+angels game in the past and didn't encounter this issue.
Cheers
Yeah I had a fantastic idea to make a massive brick making factory (240 basic furnaces) and within an hour of it running I had burned through 4million crushed stone. And then I also Encountered geode crushing....MeduSalem wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 8:29 pmI kinda managed to run out of crushed stone entirely in BA and had a crushed stone bottleneck... because I never considered geode crushing.trionicb wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 pm Epic amounts of crushed stone is a hallmark of Angel's. You'll probably have more then you could ever need so at some point you'll need to void it.
Originally you only had the recipes for the angel fishes, so the base game fish (renamed to factorian fish) had no recipes what so ever. So I just added them in to have some recipes. Due to other mods maybe doing something with the factorian fish, maybe a way to duplicate them for more healing during fights, I decided to nerf them, so you would use the angels fishes instead, as it was intended in the first place.Zyrconia wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:11 pm Today hopefully I unlock modules at around the 100 hour mark. They are a bit hard to get, but probably because I'm doing it for the first time.
But I have a question: why are Factorian fish so bad? They produce a net 0.75 fish/minute. While all other fish like Levac produce 4.125/minute. They all unlock at the same time. And getting raw meet from all other fish gives 1 meet, while Factorian give only 50%. Yes, I know the rest have a negligible algae cost, which you get for free anyway.
And what is the purpose of fish petting? It has a net loss of fish. Fish breeding has a net gain. Is it a fish dump? It has no benefits that I can see. And they unlock at the same tech level.
Is it because you can't find more advanced fish in the starter are or?
But otherwise fish are really cool and the Fish tank graphics are great. Maybe a bit pixelated though. They could be rendered at double the resolution.
Edit: nope, you can 100% find them in the starter area...
I mentioned it numerous times already, you'll get a lot of stone early game, but you'll use it all up midgame, to the point where you'll need to add for example geode washing as extra source of stone. You also get a lot of slag from making oxygen from electrolyzers, however, when you can, move it over to air filtration as that only produces a byproduct nitrogen (similar to the hydrogen), without producing slag. I think seablock is playing a big part in this, as there, the slag output is crucial for progression, which is not the case in Angels/BobAngels.Tommo175 wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 10:10 pmYeah I had a fantastic idea to make a massive brick making factory (240 basic furnaces) and within an hour of it running I had burned through 4million crushed stone. And then I also Encountered geode crushing....MeduSalem wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 8:29 pmI kinda managed to run out of crushed stone entirely in BA and had a crushed stone bottleneck... because I never considered geode crushing.trionicb wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 pm Epic amounts of crushed stone is a hallmark of Angel's. You'll probably have more then you could ever need so at some point you'll need to void it.
where on the github?lovely_santa wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 2:01 pmUpload your save file to our github and link that post. I can start writing that script to replace fluids so it uses their default temperature everywhere. However, without any answer of the devs, I wont drop the temperature below 1000° as it does work on maps that do not have this issue. I do however want to put a fix up such that all the fluid has the same temperature everywhere.brysamo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 3:26 amSo it seems like the issue has something to do with the default max temp of the game being 1000°Clovely_santa wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:06 pmMy best bet, with keeping the past updates in mind... Are the different fluids in the tanks for example, are they the same temperature? My guess would be they are a bit too cold, and when the train starts filling up, the tank is draining, so new hot fluid enters and the temperature can rise, when it bumps the temperature, the train stops filling? If this is the case, you should report this to the base game, as it is meant to equalize the temperature, so the fluid in the fluid wagon should rise as well, instead of stop filling. I did change the temperature on the smelting fluids to represent real life melting points, as requested on /r/factorio a while back.brysamo wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:41 pm So I'm experiencing a weird issue with transporting molten glass by train (and honestly I'm not sure if the issue lies within Angel's or Bob's).
1 - Only molten fluids are affected
I thought this was just an issue with molten glass but it was the only molten fluid I was transporting. tried it with a few others and same deal.
2 - My train only fills if I put it to manual. I've tried every auto condition, only manual makes it actually fill. When on auto, it will fill with 400 units, and then stop
3 - The first time I did this it just showed the train as 1 single tank (i, displayed 400k units when full). Now it shows each wagon separately
https://i.imgur.com/Suf17WT.jpg
4 - Destroying the train and rebuilding it didn't work
5 - Making a brand new train didn't work
6 - Destroying the whole station and all fluid didn't work
7 - The casters on the bottom making glass panes work fine
8 - Getting rid of the petrochem mod didn't work (but before i did that I tried the petrochem wagon, didn't work)
I should also add I'm not running the latest update of Angel's or Bob's because I don't want to reconfigure my factory to deal with RTGs that Bob's added for satellites this late in the game, but to troubleshoot I did update and the issue remained.
This was working perfectly fine when I first built it. I transported millions of units with no issues (there have been a bunch of updates to both Angel's and Bob's since then).
Honktown has some input on a potential fix from within the mod:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84303&p=493161#p493161
Create a new issue our the Angel mods github. The link to github can always be found inside the mod (through the mod portal or ingame).
This whole chain is being reviewed. Check out the discord if you want to read / contribute to the discussion. https://discord.gg/ff5p6KEBlueMarkers wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:57 pm Will there ever be an option in bio processing to turn off the requirement for the biter chain to progress down the modules and ultimately the rest of the science chain (similar to how you can turn off the "components" piece)? I mentioned it before here when I first noticed it: viewtopic.php?f=185&t=19652&p=482341#p482341
While I like 90% of what comes with Angels, one of the things I don't feel fits in well has been certain parts of the bio piece, specifically the biter chain. For most, if not all other chains, there are 10 different ways to accomplish the same output, each one more complicated (and efficient) than the last, with it's own drawbacks. I believe that's what makes Angel's great, that you can choose to do direct ore smelting, or combo sorting, or whatever fits your current build...but you're never forced to go down a chain you don't need to.
The biter chain is an extremely complex chain with no way around it, that comes up very suddenly (you're not gradually building it at the same time as every other chain). I understand that it get's easier once you get the queen set up, or something to that nature, but I'm not really looking to RNG just to get the "easy" loop otherwise I could just console spawn a queen and keep building my base.
What I would love to see is a less efficient approach to building modules, with the biter/bio chain supplementing that approach with an alternate, significantly more complex, but ultimately much more efficient process. I feel this is how bio-plastics and bio-resins have been implemented and I think that's a great feature because it gives a second means of getting something like plastic that can supplement your base if you don't want to build out your petrochem setup yet.
Being stuck into going down the biter chain has been really discouraging for me and has not really been the fun "building" experience that Factorio and Angels usually gives. It seems like just adding complexity for the sake of making things more complex.
For what it's worth, I've had good success just making a small mostly hand fed ad-hoc build for the "eggsperiments" to make about 400 biter eggs, then use them to kickstart the queen breeding cycle. 400 eggs is usually enough to get a handful of queens from hatching unless you are very unlucky with the RNG. Once you have a few queens, the cycle can continue slowly bootstrapping itself. The ad hoc build can then be reused for the first batch of medium and big biter eggs, you just have to add some crystal dust to powder milling for the crystal enhancer needed by those. Methane and chlorine (for the chloromethane) are usually easy to find somewhere in your factory already where you can siphon of a few bottles (about 50 or so of each will do) with a quickly placed temporary barreling pump.BlueMarkers wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:57 pm The biter chain is an extremely complex chain with no way around it, that comes up very suddenly (you're not gradually building it at the same time as every other chain). I understand that it get's easier once you get the queen set up, or something to that nature, but I'm not really looking to RNG just to get the "easy" loop otherwise I could just console spawn a queen and keep building my base.
The idea behind the rework is not to alter existing recipes, but rather add early game variants to them. When you want to start with any crystals (usualy crystal splinters), you'll have to setup some farming (for pulp), fish (for fish water), puffers (for eggs) and biters (for crystals), which is quite a lot to take in all at once.blahfasel2000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:29 amFor what it's worth, I've had good success just making a small mostly hand fed ad-hoc build for the "eggsperiments" to make about 400 biter eggs, then use them to kickstart the queen breeding cycle. 400 eggs is usually enough to get a handful of queens from hatching unless you are very unlucky with the RNG. Once you have a few queens, the cycle can continue slowly bootstrapping itself. The ad hoc build can then be reused for the first batch of medium and big biter eggs, you just have to add some crystal dust to powder milling for the crystal enhancer needed by those. Methane and chlorine (for the chloromethane) are usually easy to find somewhere in your factory already where you can siphon of a few bottles (about 50 or so of each will do) with a quickly placed temporary barreling pump.BlueMarkers wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:57 pm The biter chain is an extremely complex chain with no way around it, that comes up very suddenly (you're not gradually building it at the same time as every other chain). I understand that it get's easier once you get the queen set up, or something to that nature, but I'm not really looking to RNG just to get the "easy" loop otherwise I could just console spawn a queen and keep building my base.
I built most of the chain but did not manage to get a single module yet because I got side tracked and I'm taking a break since all the complexity got to me, so what I have to say is probably not too relevant, but the path is not that fixed.KiwiHawk wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 2:25 pmThis whole chain is being reviewed. Check out the discord if you want to read / contribute to the discussion. https://discord.gg/ff5p6KEBlueMarkers wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:57 pm Will there ever be an option in bio processing to turn off the requirement for the biter chain to progress down the modules and ultimately the rest of the science chain (similar to how you can turn off the "components" piece)? I mentioned it before here when I first noticed it: viewtopic.php?f=185&t=19652&p=482341#p482341
While I like 90% of what comes with Angels, one of the things I don't feel fits in well has been certain parts of the bio piece, specifically the biter chain. For most, if not all other chains, there are 10 different ways to accomplish the same output, each one more complicated (and efficient) than the last, with it's own drawbacks. I believe that's what makes Angel's great, that you can choose to do direct ore smelting, or combo sorting, or whatever fits your current build...but you're never forced to go down a chain you don't need to.
The biter chain is an extremely complex chain with no way around it, that comes up very suddenly (you're not gradually building it at the same time as every other chain). I understand that it get's easier once you get the queen set up, or something to that nature, but I'm not really looking to RNG just to get the "easy" loop otherwise I could just console spawn a queen and keep building my base.
What I would love to see is a less efficient approach to building modules, with the biter/bio chain supplementing that approach with an alternate, significantly more complex, but ultimately much more efficient process. I feel this is how bio-plastics and bio-resins have been implemented and I think that's a great feature because it gives a second means of getting something like plastic that can supplement your base if you don't want to build out your petrochem setup yet.
Being stuck into going down the biter chain has been really discouraging for me and has not really been the fun "building" experience that Factorio and Angels usually gives. It seems like just adding complexity for the sake of making things more complex.
I think even with the early game improvements you are working on there's generally a distinct lack of incentive for starting any sort of module production at an early stage of the game. Angel's even compounds that IMO, because you can get efficiency improvements much easier by upgrading to better smelting recipes rather than going for low tier modules. And you need to upgrade/extend your ore sorting and smelting anyway to progress to the next science tiers, while modules don't really help you with progressing. At least with Bob's Electronics, Bob's Revamp mods enabled and Components/Tech Overhaul in Angel's Industries disabled (haven't played with the latter so far, so I don't know if it has any influence on this) the only module boards you will ever need to make for a rocket launch are 5 of each for a module lab and then 25 speed boards to research speed module 1 as a prerequisite for RCU. Unlike vanilla neither Utility Science nor RCU production need any sustained module production at all.lovely_santa wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm The idea behind the rework is not to alter existing recipes, but rather add early game variants to them. When you want to start with any crystals (usualy crystal splinters), you'll have to setup some farming (for pulp), fish (for fish water), puffers (for eggs) and biters (for crystals), which is quite a lot to take in all at once.
Hydrochloric instead of perchloric acid makes it easier, but I still find the fish water -> spores -> bacteria route to complex (due to the calcium carbonate that's needed for nothing else) compared to doing mushredtato farming for both the bacteria and nutrient pulp. My view might be a bit skewed because I already had a central fertilizer production running when I started the crystal production so that I could just add a LTN train stop to bring in the fertilizer, however I'd say fertilizer has about the same complexity as calcium carbonate and it has much more other uses so it isn't just a one off single purpose build like the calcium carbonate.lovely_santa wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm I also mentioned that there were some bugs in the alien bactera, as of now, this required perchloric acid, which is a bug. It is not meant to be locked behind chlorine processing 3 (blue science), but rather behind chlorine processing 1 (green science), with hydrochloric acid, which is the main ingredient in perchloric acid. This way alien bacteria should be easier to obtain, and more in line with the equivalent from farming as well.
First of all, increasing puffer recipe output, the idea is that you input 100 gas of one sort and get 200 of some other gas out instead. To make this consistent, I was thinking of gaseous puffers requiring for example 100 compressed air. For green science, this seems like a good balance already for throughput.blahfasel2000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pm ...
So in essence I think to ease players more gradually into it at least fish and puffers should have some other uses besides module production.
Puffers are almost there IMO, aside from a way to breed specific puffer types that you are already working on it probably just needs a boost to the puffing recipe outputs (and maybe some recipes for a few other gases by puffing different puffer types together?) to make them useful on their own. Personally I don't mind having to set up 20, 30, maybe 40 puffer refugiums (and the support machinery for them of course) to get a relatively decent output, but when I see that I'd need hundreds to meet my production goal where with petrochem I'd need maybe 20 buildings or so that immediately puts me off the plan (on that note, maybe also some higher tiers of the fish/puffer/biter related production buildings would help at least a little bit; farms have at least the temperate/swamp/desert upgrades available).
I like that idea. We also discussed this in discord a bit. So keep the butchering recipes for meat, and have alternative recipes inside a bio processor to extract fish oil and some byproduct (fish pulp). Fish pulp can be converted with an organic recipe to fertilizer, or make nutrient pulp from it, while the fish oil can be converted to fuel oil + mineral oil, but with a high mineral oil output. Fuel oil is not so logical, we where thinking something towards rubber, as that is an irl use case, maybe methane in very small amounts. As compensation, we would increase the consumption of lubricant in coolant.blahfasel2000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pm That leaves fish. Thinking about some historic industrial uses of fish maybe some way to extract something like fish oil from them that can then be turned into lubricant and other (liquid) oil related stuff? Somewhat similar to how you can process vegetable oil from farming. To differentiate it from vegetable oil you could make the outputs from fish oil leaning more towards base mineral oil, while vegetable oil keeps its higher proportion of fuel oil. Also, fish emulsion is an actual real life byproduct from extracting fish oil and is used (with some sulfuric acid added as a preservative) as an organic fertilizer, so having fertilizer as a byproduct could also be a thing to incentivise fish farming.
Thinking about it, the fish oil (and maybe fertilizer) thing combined with your low scale crystal production from polluted fish water could actually kill two birds with one stone. The oil/fertilizer production as something independent to incentivise players to get into fish farming relatively early independent of module production, and then when they look into what to do with the polluted fish water byproduct they get steered into early crystal/module production.
I am still thinking about adding a mk2 recipe, that uses perchloric acid instead of hydrochloric acid and gives more bacteria out of it, so it becomes more viable versus farming.blahfasel2000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:42 pmHydrochloric instead of perchloric acid makes it easier, but I still find the fish water -> spores -> bacteria route to complex (due to the calcium carbonate that's needed for nothing else) compared to doing mushredtato farming for both the bacteria and nutrient pulp. My view might be a bit skewed because I already had a central fertilizer production running when I started the crystal production so that I could just add a LTN train stop to bring in the fertilizer, however I'd say fertilizer has about the same complexity as calcium carbonate and it has much more other uses so it isn't just a one off single purpose build like the calcium carbonate.lovely_santa wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm I also mentioned that there were some bugs in the alien bactera, as of now, this required perchloric acid, which is a bug. It is not meant to be locked behind chlorine processing 3 (blue science), but rather behind chlorine processing 1 (green science), with hydrochloric acid, which is the main ingredient in perchloric acid. This way alien bacteria should be easier to obtain, and more in line with the equivalent from farming as well.
