Factorio Forums

Posted: **Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:14 pm**

dee- wrote: Hm, that's actually an idea. Have the "basics" on the right side, the more interesting things on the left.
I just don't think this will conserve vertical space as you still have to add them above each other:
Code: Select all
advanced ---+
            +--- basic
advanced ---+
            +--- basic
            +--- basic
or you have to make complex connectors so you can always feed in new basic items...
Code: Select all
advanced ---*--- basic
advanced ---*
advanced ---*--- basic
            *--- basic

Well what I was planning is to have a "basic" rack with ore going up, and plates, circuits going down, and then back up. If needed (because of throughput problems) they can also be inserted halfway in.

I other words, I would have three lanes:

Code: Select all


[advanced]  | ↑ bus ↑ |  | ↓ plates ↓ |  | ↑ ore ↑ | [basic]
[advanced]  | ↑ bus ↑ |  | ↓ plates ↓ |  | ↑ ore ↑ | [basic]
[advanced]  | ↑ bus ↑ |  | ↓ plates ↓ |  | ↑ ore ↑ | [basic]
                  ↑          ↓             ↑     ↑
                  ⬑ [storage]↲            [station]

Posted: **Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:08 pm**

dee- wrote:
vanatteveldt wrote:I'm inspired again to reorganize my newest factory along your lines (but of course with some adjustments - I'll probably put plastics and sulphur on the belt, and only carry lube in pipes), will post screenshots when I have some!
"Let's see you clever builds"

Version 0.1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23617

Posted: **Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:09 am**

Westrum wrote:
dee- wrote:
They don't transport items but make the blue belts, right after the first splitter, not to make left/right turns but to be straight, so the items are side-fed onto the belt, with only one lane used:

The balancer balances lanes (uneven demand on the consumption-belts lanes on the right gets balanced backwards to evenly balanced demand on the supply-belts lanes on the left) and is able to operate at full blue speed without loss of throughput or compression.

Yellow belts are the cheapest, so...
Now THAT'S engineering for ya!
Got any more amazing tricks? You're spoiling me here
Would love some efficient smelting setups

Here's a much smaller version with the same characteristics:

"Why haven't I thought earlier of that?"

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:33 am**

I've started building my next factory based on this concept:

Research Facility

Liquid Processing (still need to add lubricant and switch my refineries over to Advanced Processing)

Green circuit and steel production

My main bus is not yet saturated with plates, and thus green circuit production is crawling along, so I need to move my mining facilities to larger ore patches. But the overall concept seems to work rather well.

Posted: **Mon May 09, 2016 6:08 pm**

Hey dee, Thank you for your design ruleset! I had a lot of fun with it! I took a lot of your basic designs. Thanks for that too.

I play vanilla+ (RSO+RSO radar and some comfort mods like Foreman Blueprints or more light)

Some designs, sorry if there are still some errors in them, my blueprints got corrupted

Science

Robot Frames

Chemical Plant

Base

Stations

I wanted to build next to it a Rocket-factory based on these principles, but i think now it is not really suited for that task, i think troughput is to small, did you do some high troughput stuff with it?
Another problem is that some racks just have not enough input capacity, to suit more than 2-3 repetitions, so you have to repeat them vertically and maybe add feeders in between, which makes the factory even longer.

Posted: **Mon May 09, 2016 9:00 pm**

This... this is beautiful...

It really makes me happy you had fun toying and tinkering around

From your blueprints I see you put some serious thought into them to keep the design rules intact and what came out is really really clever and inspiring!
I'd be interested about a critical feedback from you on the design rules themselves. How was the experience, what would you change.

As you rightfully stated, the factory tends to get quite long as every rack adds 13 tiles on top and producing the most basic items like circuits, steel and all the fluids already use some racks creating a basic minimum height.

Also the belts and pipes for the bus itself are a not neglectible overhead. Sure, you can mass-produce all the blue belts and all the pipes and at that stage resources are usually not a problem anymore, but they tend to add up and also take up some "ineffective space".

To make the factory shorter you can have two busses running parallel, e.g. by using a splitter after the base items (circuits et al.) or by producing them in both busses:

Code: Select all

           ^
           |
     rack -+
     rack -+
     rack -+
     rack -+
     rack -+
     rack -+
base rack -+
base rack -+
base rack -+

becomes:

Code: Select all

      ^         ^
      |         |
rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+
      '----<----+
     base rack -+
     base rack -+
     base rack -+

When doing this you limit yourself how wide the right bus with its racks can get before running into the left bus, but there are sorts of items that do not need a wide amount of space (as seen on your map) and their expected max-width can be estimated.
Keep the side-feeds in mind, so group depending racks together to keep the side-feeds short and ideally contained in one bus.

And of course you're not limited to 2 but you can make 3, 4 or even more parallel busses.

If the base items become too sparse in one of the branched-off busses you have to add another base rack inside to ramp up the supply again.
Then the balancing mini-game starts anew

It's also possible to rotate the blueprints as-is and have the bus running up on the left side and down on the right side. I haven't tried it myself but it should be feasible (and I imagine it would possibly look pretty cool

)

Code: Select all

           .---.
     rack -+   +- rack
     rack -+   +- rack
     rack -+   +- rack
     rack -+   |
     rack -+   v
     rack -+
base rack -+
base rack -+
base rack -+

You can even go completely crazy:

Code: Select all

                       k
                       c
                       a
                       r
                       |
                     .-+-.
               rack -+   +- rack
               rack -+   +- rack
      ^        rack -+   +- rack
      |        rack -+   +- rack
rack -+   base rack -+   +- rack
rack -+   base rack -+   +- rack
rack -+   base rack -+   +- rack
rack -+              '-------------<---- stockpile
rack -+                  +- rack
      '---+----+-----+---'
          |    |     |
          r    r     r
          a    a     a
          c    c     c
          k    k     k

The main problem with these "folding" approaces is that it could get a bit messy when you want to feed in fresh plates from the stockpile and that crosses another bus. The easiest solution would probably to just feed all busses using the "Bus Plate-Feeder" from this post (larger example with some NOPs):

Code: Select all

      ^         ^         ^         ^
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      +----<----+----<----+----<----+----<---- stockpile
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      '----<----+         '----<----+
                |                   |
                '---------<---------+
                                    |
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                                    |
                                    '----<---- stockpile

As the feeders are serial and not treelike, the rightmost bus gets the most share of items, up to 50%, the next one 50%*50%=25%, the next one 12.5% and so on. One way would be to split the resources in a fair way before joining them into the bus:

Code: Select all

      ^         ^         ^         ^
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      |   rack -+         |         +-<--+ 
      |         |         |         |    +-+
      |         |         +-----------<--+ |
rack -+         |         |         |      +- stockpile
      |         +---------------------<--+ |
      |         |         |         |    +-+
      +-------------------------------<--+ 
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      '----<----+         '----<----+
                |                   |
                '---------<---------+
                                    |
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                                    |
                                    '----<---- stockpile

But this escalates quickly

The nice thing is you can experiment with all the larger base layouts quite easily because all facilities fall exactly into the raster of the rack height, which makes ripping out a whole rack and placing something entirely different in its place so easy. Usually nothing else has to be modified (besides side-feeds). It's plug and play

Regarding the question about supplying a rocket silo; yes, it takes a helluva of resources per second as you have to repeat the production facilities very often to get the desired number of items in a reasonable time. So I assume it's only possible if you are able to feed enough raw resources like plates quick enough to keep the production pace up.
I suppose there are several ways to approach this. One way to do this would be by using a more integrated production rack or by using the multibus approach seen above.

The more homogenous your racks are the better you can calculate their demand and optimize the whole bus layout for them regarding when to feed, where to split, etc. It's like creating a production matrix on a larger scale consisting of racks on parallel busses and then consider those racks and busses again as a single unit, a building block, which can again be embedded into a larger scale system where resources are fed into and produced items are received from in a standardized way.

Hm. Actually that gave me an idea

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 12:00 pm**

Thank you for your friedly feedback

dee- wrote:I'd be interested about a critical feedback from you on the design rules themselves. How was the experience, what would you change.

I really like the strictness of the rules, the small spaces you have to get your assemblers, inserters and belts into! it's like a big puzzle.
The modularity of it is something very very very practical, need more circuits here? no problem, just move my chest production up the line and put circuits there. Takes two minutes.
what I was thinking about, maybe use double racks for complex Items, so you don't have to sidefeed to much. so you don't get this ugly sidefeed chains:

Examples

But maybe the trainwagon desin solves that problem, because you can have a lot of different inputs. Need to thinker with it.

dee- wrote:Also the belts and pipes for the bus itself are a not neglectible overhead. Sure, you can mass-produce all the blue belts and all the pipes and at that stage resources are usually not a problem anymore, but they tend to add up and also take up some "ineffective space".

It's not a bug, its a feature! buffering

I think this problem is hardly solvable by desin when working with belts and PnP. But you can just disconect the items not used furter up if you want to do it "efficiently".
And yeah... belts and pipes are the first thing you shoud automatise if you use more or less any desin

dee- wrote:To make the factory shorter you can have two busses running parallel, e.g. by using a splitter after the base items (circuits et al.)

That is/was actually my next project, i just wanted to have everything i need first so i don't need to handcraft anymore, but i know, it got a "little" out of hand

but now i saw the problems I get with high troughput, i thinking just splitting the fluids and make the rest independent(inclusive smelting, outposts and trainnetwork)
why use the fluids from the first bus then? i got an awful lot of oil saved there, thanks to my 10k barrels (and i was thinking why do my outposts run out of oil so fast, i dont need that much XD)

dee- wrote:It's also possible to rotate the blueprints as-is and have the bus running up on the left side and down on the right side. I haven't tried it myself but it should be feasible (and I imagine it would possibly look pretty cool )

I love that idea, but would interfere with my trainnetwork, which is also north-south aligned

Map

dee- wrote:The more homogenous your racks are the better you can calculate their demand and optimize the whole bus layout for them regarding when to feed, where to split, etc.

I'm not so the calculator type, i just throw resources at it until it works

that is actually one of my favourite things about this desin, just add or move things arround as you see stuff is missing.

dee- wrote:It's like creating a production matrix on a larger scale consisting of racks on parallel busses and then consider those racks and busses again as a single unit, a building block, which can again be embedded into a larger scale system where resources are fed into and produced items are received from in a standardized way.

so for example use a different bus for every component of rocket parts?

and two other layouts of mine:

Roboports

Smelting

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 12:34 pm**

Don_Camillo wrote:Thank you for your friedly feedback

You're most welcome

Don_Camillo wrote:
dee- wrote:I'd be interested about a critical feedback from you on the design rules themselves. How was the experience, what would you change.
I really like the strictness of the rules, the small spaces you have to get your assemblers, inserters and belts into! it's like a big puzzle.
The modularity of it is something very very very practical, need more circuits here? no problem, just move my chest production up the line and put circuits there. Takes two minutes.

Exactly what I like about the design myself

Don_Camillo wrote:what I was thinking about, maybe use double racks for complex Items, so you don't have to sidefeed to much. so you don't get this ugly sidefeed chains:
Examples
chain.PNG

chain2.PNG
But maybe the trainwagon desin solves that problem, because you can have a lot of different inputs. Need to thinker with it.

The sidefeeds in these screenshots can be avoided.
The reason you have these is because you use a rack of Modules 1, one of Modules 2 and one of Modules 3, when in the end all you wanted was a Module 3.
Having all items in separate racks makes it easy to split of some of the items for other purposes because you have a good access to the items as they go around on the side-feeds.
But if you are only interested in the final Module 3, then you can produce level 1 and 2 "in situ" and use them directly inside your level 3 rack.
Then you would have a blueprint that produces level 3 modules of base items from the bus, without the sidefeeds.

Sadly, train wagons are not blueprintable.

Don_Camillo wrote:
dee- wrote:Also the belts and pipes for the bus itself are a not neglectible overhead. Sure, you can mass-produce all the blue belts and all the pipes and at that stage resources are usually not a problem anymore, but they tend to add up and also take up some "ineffective space".
It's not a bug, its a feature! buffering I think this problem is hardly solvable by desin when working with belts and PnP. But you can just disconect the items not used furter up if you want to do it "efficiently".
And yeah... belts and pipes are the first thing you shoud automatise if you use more or less any desin

What I do is build racks north the "base baseline" that need items from the bus and all the racks that only need or produce fluids below the baseline as they don't grab items from the bus, thus the belts can remain empty.

Splitting off into several branches gives you also the chance to control which items or fluids you want or need on this branch, saving on wasted because never-used items and fluids. But you already said that

Don_Camillo wrote:
dee- wrote:To make the factory shorter you can have two busses running parallel, e.g. by using a splitter after the base items (circuits et al.)
That is/was actually my next project, i just wanted to have everything i need first so i don't need to handcraft anymore, but i know, it got a "little" out of hand
but now i saw the problems I get with high troughput, i thinking just splitting the fluids and make the rest independent(inclusive smelting, outposts and trainnetwork)
why use the fluids from the first bus then? i got an awful lot of oil saved there, thanks to my 10k barrels (and i was thinking why do my outposts run out of oil so fast, i dont need that much XD)

Don't tell me about zillions of full oil barrels lying around

Worst is, oil is endless so you have to pull the line at some time otherwise at the end of the universe you will only have filled barrels and all iron went into barrel production.

Don_Camillo wrote:
dee- wrote:It's also possible to rotate the blueprints as-is and have the bus running up on the left side and down on the right side. I haven't tried it myself but it should be feasible (and I imagine it would possibly look pretty cool )
I love that idea, but would interfere with my trainnetwork, which is also north-south aligned
Map
Map 2.PNG

Your base looks like a sibling to my base; I also have the stations directly on the right of the base. That's actually a nice feature of this system: you can rely on a straight right edge as the racks grow to the left, so the space on the right can be used for things that are not so flexible to move like stockpiles with millions of plates.

That's also the reason I have not tried it myself; the space on the right is already in use. But when starting a new or separate base it would be possible to try this, although I probably prefer splitters to Uzumaki bases, but the idea is tempting, just for giggles. (Actually, Uzumaki is pretty cool

)

Don_Camillo wrote:
dee- wrote:The more homogenous your racks are the better you can calculate their demand and optimize the whole bus layout for them regarding when to feed, where to split, etc.
I'm not so the calculator type, i just throw resources at it until it works that is actually one of my favourite things about this desin, just add or move things arround as you see stuff is missing.

dee- wrote:It's like creating a production matrix on a larger scale consisting of racks on parallel busses and then consider those racks and busses again as a single unit, a building block, which can again be embedded into a larger scale system where resources are fed into and produced items are received from in a standardized way.
so for example use a different bus for every component of rocket parts?

I more thought about creating a parallel bus system which is specialized on producing the ingredients for rocket bases like fuel, etc. in such a way it has all the necessary basic items and feeds in a good and efficient ratio

Code: Select all

      ^         ^         ^         ^
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      +----<----+----<----+----<----+----<---- stockpile
      |         |         |         |
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
rack -+   rack -+   rack -+   rack -+
      |         |         |         |
      '----<----+         '----<----+
                |                   |
                '---------<---------+
                                    |
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                         base rack -+
                                    |
                                    '----<---- stockpile

and then use this whole thing as a blueprint to scale up the production.

Don_Camillo wrote:and two other layouts of mine:
Roboports
Roboports.PNG

Smelting
smelting.PNG
Modular and tilable, produces a balanced full blue belt of Plates out of a full blue belt of ressources, ressouces are evenly distributed, you can place the next module right over the belt on top or bottom

I actually stopped creating blueprints for every item in the game as it was too much work for me to design the racks. They tend to get quite trivial so they became not too much fun for me. I produce these "simple" items with logistic chests and logistic robot factories as also the needed amount of those is not as high as other items. But by all means, the more the merrier

Posted: **Tue May 10, 2016 1:36 pm**

dee- wrote:The sidefeeds in these screenshots can be avoided.
The reason you have these is because you use a rack of Modules 1, one of Modules 2 and one of Modules 3, when in the end all you wanted was a Module 3.
Having all items in separate racks makes it easy to split of some of the items for other purposes because you have a good access to the items as they go around on the side-feeds.
But if you are only interested in the final Module 3, then you can produce level 1 and 2 "in situ" and use them directly inside your level 3 rack.
Then you would have a blueprint that produces level 3 modules of base items from the bus, without the sidefeeds.

yes i know, but then you run into problems for example the destroyer capsule: you just need to many different items and you got not enough troughput of ressources and your rack gets just get incredibly long you need around 30 assemblers for 2 capsules every 15 sec. (without modules)

dee- wrote:Sadly, train wagons are not blueprintable.

it's not to bad, you can shift+click copy their settings. its a little more to do, but i think the compression of desings they allow is worth it.

What I do is build racks north the "base baseline" that need items from the bus and all the racks that only need or produce fluids below the baseline as they don't grab items from the bus, thus the belts can remain empty.

I think the logical thing to do

dee- wrote:That's also the reason I have not tried it myself; the space on the right is already in use. But when starting a new or separate base it would be possible to try this, although I probably prefer splitters to Uzumaki bases, but the idea is tempting, just for giggles. (Actually, Uzumaki is pretty cool )

It will be so unpractical, it would to be cool as hell

dee- wrote:I more thought about creating a parallel bus system which is specialized on producing the ingredients for rocket bases like fuel, etc. in such a way it has all the necessary basic items and feeds in a good and efficient ratio

okey, I see what you mean, that could be actually a suitable design for a megafactory i think.

dee- wrote:I actually stopped creating blueprints for every item in the game as it was too much work for me to design the racks. They tend to get quite trivial so they became not too much fun for me.

was my challenge to do every item i use in a blueprint and yes it kinda gets trivial after some time, but then i just tried to get more creative to find a better, more beautiful, more compressed and/or more practical solution than the simple standart three belt two assembler design

do you have a screen of your map? would love to see it

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 6:17 pm**

Hi there! Sorry, I really kept you waiting...

Instead of screenshots I simply uploaded my most recent savegame.
In it you will find a big bunch of blueprints, for the racks and also for my Modular Extensible PnP Train Station (R) tm design.

Feel free to dig around! I'd be delighted to get a feedback and improvement suggestions.

The base uses the modded Nixie Tubes mod (see screenshot). If you don't have the mod installed then that's no problem, you'll simply miss out on the storage amount counter, which is just a visual and not a functional aid.

And here's the savegame: link.

Please let me know if you have any problems downloading it.
I have an ad-blocker installed and to me the site looks pretty clean and works without nags. If it's a hassle I'll switch the file hoster.

Have fun
dee-

Posted: **Sat May 21, 2016 7:56 pm**

Thank you indeed - one can learn a lot from your map

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2016 5:12 pm**

Thank you! what a nice Factory. you handcraft a lot?

I think you can even upload the savegame here.

Posted: **Sun May 22, 2016 11:43 pm**

dee- wrote:Here's a much smaller version with the same characteristics:

"Why haven't I thought earlier of that?"

There's always another "even smaller" around the corner

This is NOT my design, it's from a Reddit post.

Posted: **Mon May 23, 2016 8:39 pm**

Or this way with red underground which seem to not affect the speed. cause did a race and both filled the lane same time almost, dunno which one first.

Posted: **Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:42 pm**

I like your approach. I'm using a lot of bots atm but I've made a rack system those that I adhere to fairly strictly and it's vey useful. It really keeps things organised and easy to expand. Bots makes it fairly trivial to make a megafactory though so once I'm done I'll do something with belts and trains. It might not be similar to this either but at least it will be inspired by it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:29 pm**

I like your concept.
I added some conditions.
A. 11 tiles Height. (MAX pipe-to-ground length)
B. Merging the connector-block to the transfer-block. (no connector-block)
C. Not changing base-transfer-block parts. (only adding parts. simplified removing)
D. Including big-electric-pole.

base-transfer-block

: base-transfer-block.jpg (149.78 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

battery

: battery.jpg (80.31 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

: battery-transfer-block.jpg (128.09 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

science-pack

: s1.jpg (151.67 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

: s2.jpg (220.89 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

: s3.jpg (266.48 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

oil-refinery

: oil.jpg (97.69 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

: oil-transfer-block.jpg (218.2 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

import

: import.jpg (189.42 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

map

: map.jpg (444.52 KiB) Viewed 18970 times

I'm enjoying the clever builds!

Posted: **Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:28 pm**

Hi,

I really like this design, and I'm converting everything to using it.

Here is my first contribution for chests (I registered to post this

):

: Chests pattern; coffres.jpeg (974.3 KiB) Viewed 18777 times

Please note that :
- My bus is going from north to south, you may have to reverse the image;
- All chests types are stored in logistic chests, so adjust the storage.

I hope my design is not too ugly and respects all the rules

And as a bonus, a more compact pattern for both types of tubes:

: tubes pattern; tubes.jpeg (655.6 KiB) Viewed 18774 times

Posted: **Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:27 am**

Massive fan of the plug and play modular layout of this bus system, great work. It aways bugged me that I couldnt get a modular all-in-one science layout to fit in a single rack. I've managed to squeeze it into a 'double rack' space, but wondering if anyone wanted to input on it and see if we can squeeze it down some more. Was thinking of feeding in yellow inserters on half of the red belt, but it gets a little complicated and my brain is hurting >_<

It pretty much keeps up with demand from the science buildings and with the addition of a couple of modules I have no supply issues in my base.
(using crafted artifacts so yeah the purple circuits are alien artifacts).

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:40 pm**

This whole thread has been totally awesome, from the original idea (thanks and kudos, Dee!) to my latest hero, Stunevol, for that completely brilliant (and twisted) research module (and a half *grin*). You guys rock!

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:13 pm**

here are some images of my base using the concepts in this threath

need aditional flowtrough but hey itsa nice base and gives me freedom to make whatever, research is done by another temp. base wich was broken down
the large poles are at max distance and there are 2 bus distances between every walled section

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