sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
English is not my native language, the text is made with the help of a translator, the meaning could be distorted, there may be translation errors.
At the beginning, I as a Russian player, it was unpleasant to me at the that the creator of this game approved of this topic, Wube specifically chose the side of the conflict, and even actually wrote that they support anti-government sentiment in my country (Russia),"We support Russians that stand against the actions of the Russian government." no, I do not treat Ukraine or its people badly, like most Russians, we sincerely wish Ukraine and its the people are well, but not under the influence of the West, because the West uses it for its own purposes against us and this is a fact, but you will not understand it if you do not live in Russia, and even if you lived here, it is not a fact that you would understand it, because before the blocking of many Western media in Russia, all these media were engaged in only one thing, constant attempts to compromise our government, is that what the objective media do? All their news carried a purely negative character aimed either at condemning our authorities for inaction in everything, or covering exceptionally bad news with not a direct hint of the guilt of the authorities, but this, according to their idea, followed from this.
This is quite tragic to read, there is no factual evidence to support the idea that "the west" is using Ukraine against Russia, you call it a fact but it's not a fact it's called an interpretation, an opinion, no factual event is going to back up this narrative, what really happened is that Russia attacks Ukraine and try to justify the aggression by shifting the blame toward the victims of the aggression. When economic pressure and gas blackmail from Russia on to Ukraine failed to secure a puppet corrupt regime that would stay under the economic orbit of Russia, then military personnel from Russia started to pour in Ukraine while people opposing the conflict in Russia where murdered in the streets :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov
Furthermore, why would Russian head of state be the one that decide what is Ukraine doing with their politics ? You just write that Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to align their politics freely, but this is disrecpecting the soverignty of Ukraine, which Russia has pledged to protect. Just stating that Ukraine should or shouldn't align with such or such party is already something that is in breach with the treaties Russia signed when Ukraine agreed to give back their nuclear weapon after their independance in 1991. Ukraine according to internationnal law is free to sign a trade agreement with the EU if they decide so. The only problem here is that they may be successfull, it may show an example of a country whose history is intertwined with Russia that changing president every 5 years is compatible with improving standard of living. An example of successful post-soviet transition, like in the other countries that joined the EU after the fall of the USSR, when the economic hardship in Russia and former soviet republic was the a important cause for the interest in the "West".
Russia lost part of its influence over those countries overtime and resorted to threat and use of violence in order to steam the tide. Blaming the others for trying to find success on their own rather than as dependant state. This was not only the case for Ukraine, but also Georgia.
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Naturally, this had a strong influence on people who do not understand politics, especially on young people, especially since our government absolutely did not interfere with these media, isn't this a sign of freedom of speech?, the Western media literally brainwashed our population, it got to the point that part of the population began to treat their country badly, call it disparaging words, treat it was bad for the authorities (and after all, they regulate all the orders in the country) and this became the partical norm among the population, especially among young people, we also had a Bolotnaya Square (fortunately, the protests failed), an analogue of the Maidan in Ukraine (the protests were successful, let the Ukrainians themselves decide for good or not) or the protests in Belarus (also fortunately failed), as a result, the government began to realize the seriousness of the risks of statehood, and was forced to take measures by restricting some freedoms, most of them restrictions on the work of Western media, mainly those who have been compromising Russia as a country for years, probably you don't know but the economies of our countries they are closely connected and it is advantageous for the West to weaken them, which is exactly what they have been doing for many decades.
You gave an highly oriented interpretation, the Russian government has been controlling increasingly strictly the media in the country since decades, beginning during the war against Chechnya, preventing independant reporting under the pretext of being a foreign agent is a method that is used against political opposition and journalists altogether, pushing repeatdly content seeking to influence public opinion to support a military action against a country or a people that dared to express the wish of not being an economical and political dependancy of a country whose head of state Vladimir Putin was becoming increasingly unpopular with the new generations whose aspiration in life are not the same as the conservative and self-isolating policy choosen.
This control of the media had some success in Russia, until 2011 or so where the need for election fraud first occur, from this point in time it has worsen faster. In Ukraine however Russian-state media did not succeed into making the population accept the decision of Viktor Ianoukovitch, (elected after a record breaking expensivly paid by Russian money political campain) to suspend the association agreement with the EU. Which prompted a coup that saw him fled to Russia.
From that time the state media were all-on to target Ukraine with propaganda preparing the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and never stopped in Russia to be controlled toward the obejctive of aquiring enough % of public opinion to either support the direct use of military agression toward Ukraine, or at least stay doubtful that opening military hostilities against Ukraine despite the history and the treaties and the feeling the both countries population may be necessary, good, motivated or positive for Russia .
When you look at other countries that decided to join the EU such as Poland , or Czech Republik, even East Germany, it's obvious that "the West" is not trying to weaken their economy. Its a plain lie to allegate intentions onto "the West" when you look at countries like Germany, France, Italy or the Netherland that are all historic member of the European Union and trading and sharing wealth with Russia, be it buying Oil and Gas, selling machines food medicine cosmetic cars clothes or technology, exchanging student, tourists sport players and space program.
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Perhaps someone here will be interested in how it is now in Russia, what people think, what is happening in general,
I do not pretend to be objective, because I do not know everything and I can only express my purely subjective point of view.
It was already clear that you were given a highly subjective interpretation, even so as to be oriented. Although your opinion is interesting for my personnal curiosity, I highly doubt your long text posted in the thread "We support Ukraine" was not tought out to try and influence people against the stand that was taken when it was opened and is doing so pretending it to be just a neutral voice trying to inform which is inconsistent with saying yourself you express your purely subjective point of view but you are publishing self-contradicting statement, in different part of the same long text as this part as this part located at the end shows with the highlight :
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Now, I am probably more neutral about this topic, but this is my personal attitude, because after a while there will be more understanding, including whether the decision to create it was right. Probably without making it Wube could lose more in sales in other markets than to lose in a not so big Russian market like business is nothing personal. But somewhere deep inside I would like to believe that they were really guided by humanitarian considerations, and not by a trend.
There is a statement of kovarex on this thread page 5 which i'm not going to quote because as he must be busy making the game Factorio which is the game the forum is usually dedicated to, except for this thread where your only contribution is located a week after your registration which makes me think maybe you are a new player and in this case maybe you don't know kovarex is a founder of Wube, you could read that statement, or just re read the article that caused this thread to be opened in the first place, or look at the link above the forum to the charity that receive the money, instead of doing baseless insinuation.
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Do we have propaganda on TV, yes of course there is, as in any country, I am not a supporter of it, but if our authorities do not replace Western propaganda with it, then the people will absorb someone else's, so this is probably a forced measure.
That makes you a supporter of it, one doesn't have to be resigned to read propaganda, one good thing in the world is that it's diverse and you can read many point of views from accross the globe which drastically reduce the impact of propaganda, that is when you don't consider the whole world is doing propaganda against you. The very fact that you consider different opinion should "replace" each other and cannot be expressed in their respective media is supporting censorship of different opinion. You justify evil by with another evil, this is not a forced measure, this is an opinion and a deliberate choice for one individual to consider propaganda is necessary and everywhere, dismissing regularly the will from human beings to satisfy their curiosity with factual information backed by evidence as a mean to fulfill their thirst for more knowledge, one of the driving factor of increased standard of living for human beings throughout the history when not repressed.
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Nevertheless, I think it is orders of magnitude weaker than the one shown by the Ukrainian media for its population, I have some acquaintances in Ukraine, and in communicating with them it seems that they are figuratively told that the Russian military literally eat people alive and drink the blood of babies, let it be on the conscience of their authorities and the collective West, but this logic is not new and it is clear to me, if you are familiar with the term color revolutions, then you will have no questions about how hatred is being whipped up among the young population, usually children and rape are being used en masse in the media, this works very effectively, in the West they know very well how to fabricate and submit it correctly.
This is news from a person on the internet that claim he has acquaintances in Ukraine. This makes it a very low trusted source of information automatically for me. Especially when from an uncensored internet, one has accesss to Ukrainian news channel both those made for Ukrainians and news forwarded to internationnal audience. And that it is possible to also see and read Russian new article or TV shows, including those where the presentator that let his guest say that they could send tanks up to Berlin or Paris and nuke the USA is recognizing in front of the head of RT that they are losing the information war, but they will be winning the real war.
It's also ridiculous to try and legitimize the Russian propaganda comparing it with the so called Ukrainian propaganda when the reports of the United Nations are available in their their full lengh over the internet without any mediatic filter of any kind of political biais, same as the prices of grains or gas. The different representatives of different countries that expressed their opposition to the war are obvisouly not part of an imaginary ennemy that is called the collective West only when people attempt to pitch a narrative seek at dismissing the possibility for independant factual reporting that let people drive their own conclusion on the chain of consequences that lead to some events, by comparing different version, accessing facts, establishing chronology of event and research for significant event corroborated by evidence of their happening. ( that's called journalism)
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Do most people in Russia support the authorities in current events, personally, according to my feelings, yes, do they understand the real causes and circumstances of the problem well, I think not, do people in Russia support violence against the population of Ukraine, definitely not, a lot of their relatives live in Ukraine.
As explained earlier with the 2011-2014 period of time, this is exactly why there is an all out propaganda hybrid warfare launched by Russia, not only conventionnal forces. The earlier attempt at euphemising the full-scale war by calling it a "special military operation" was an attempt at hiding the reality of the invasion to the population that only trust state TV to receive information, trying to hide the expectdly short war, as it was done in 2014 when Russian soldier did not wear their insigna and were called little green men. ( fact recognized later on in Russia which awarded medal ).
When the initial assault on Kyiv failed, after stalling for a month and the realization that it was not going to be possible to take a city that defend itself fiercly in a country united against the invasion, the narrative of the war apologist propaganda started to shift away because it was also not going to be possible to explain that the country was going to be liberated and instead the justification for the failure, in a continuous pattern of trying to diminish the success of the Ukrainian people, Ukrainian army, Ukrainian resistance, came under the form of blaming the collective west / global west depending on the translator.
[/quote]
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
What is the attitude to Navalny in Russia?
He is not interesting to anyone, absolutely, he is a political corpse, probably according to the idea of the West, bringing him to the altar of "freedom", he should have turned out to be a martyr for the Russian people (probably in the Western media they talk about how people in Russia worry about him, but fortunately this is not the case, probably you will have to live a couple years in Russia to find at least someone who worries about him), but something went wrong, and he just went to prison, perhaps under a far-fetched and fabricated pretext, but for undermining the stability of the country, this is still a very mild punishment, I saw some of his debates when he wanted to run for president, I was ashamed of him, he can't do anything but criticize the government, he offered absolutely nothing, his whole message was, I'll become president and then I'll figure out how to do everything cool, 0 constructiveness.
But in the beginning, he really persuaded quite a few people to his side, although this curiously coincided with the time when the Western media criticized the authorities in the country as much as possible.
Why do you bring up this talking point ? Can you enlight us on the relevancy of painting negatively the history of one person without telling us anything about his actual statement, factually prooven explanation of the stance he took about the war in Ukraine ?
You mention someone only to say bad things on him as if you were paid to smear a person. What did he say about Ukraine ?
Wouldn't it be similar to what Boris Nemtsov had to say before he was murdered ?
He wrote a report availble here :
https://archive.org/details/B-001-004-132
or here in .pdf
https://libertas-institut.com/wp-conten ... 150521.pdf
He seem to have a pretty different interpretation on absolutly everything you said in your post, so much that i imagine he would have been a very fierce political opponent of Putin, he had a constructive project, maybe his assassination was an attempt to intimidate everyone who could voice an alternative project ? You are talking about Navalny because he says he suffered assassination attempt ? I'm anticipating your next point since you mention another thing related with poisonning :
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Do people in Russia believe in the poisoning of the Skripals?,
I would like to answer the question with a question, what is the point of sending a former traitor, whom the Russian authorities pardoned and released? what kind of threat he poses and what risks to the authorities, and the risks to the authorities if something happens to him. Skripals in Russia is a meme.
Maybe this is also a talking point you brought up in response of my own earlier mention of poisonning people to death, but i was refering to :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko
This is very different, look at the kind of thing that could have been considered a threat :
Two weeks before his poisoning, Alexander Litvinenko accused Vladimir Putin of ordering the assassination of the Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya and stated that a former presidential candidate, Irina Hakamada, warned Politkovskaya about threats to her life coming from the Russian president. Litvinenko advised Politkovskaya to escape from Russia immediately. Hakamada denied her involvement in passing any specific threats, and said that she warned Politkovskaya only in general terms more than a year earlier.[71] It remains unclear if Litvinenko referred to an earlier statement made by Boris Berezovsky, who claimed that Boris Nemtsov, a former Deputy Prime Minister of Russia, received word from Hakamada that Putin threatened her and like-minded colleagues in person. According to Berezovsky, Putin stated that Hakamada and her colleagues "will take in the head immediately, literally, not figuratively" if they "open the mouth" about the Russian apartment bombings.[72]
See now all 3 people mentionned are dead, Anna Politovskaia, Boris Nemtsov, and Alexander Litvinenko. Is this also a meme in Russia ? Who do you think create those meme ? what kind of information are people presented with to not see the obvious connexions between those murders ?
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Russia is accused of high energy prices, this is ridiculous, at first there were contracts, the EU was not satisfied with it, they wanted to pay less, switched to spot prices at the request of the EU, and the EU seems to be satisfied, but after a while the prices rose, the EU was again not satisfied, with all this, they constantly put pressure on Russia. that is, Russia supplies the goods, and they tell her how to do it, okay, apple's tactics are ok, let's say Russia agreed to everything, how long was it prevented from building a gas pipeline?, she built, but attention, because of internal EU laws, only half is allowed to pump through this pipeline, well, when the conflict began in Ukraine in February 2022, the Western world, including the EU, froze about $ 300bn to Russia, what should Russia do next to supply gas for free? Naturally, Russia has taken measures to ensure that the money Europe pays is on Russia's accounts, it also needs to somehow give money to foreign investors in the end, if Europe is ready to suffer for the sake of the interests of the United States, this is its right.
Ukraine is supported because they are being waged a war of aggression against them, you should have read the opening post that spawned the topic instead of making a list of all the argument you could find to blame a 3rd party for the consequences of the war of agression, the very escalation of conflict into an all-out war which is dated to the day of Putin's speech saying he launched a "military operation" in february 2022 when thousands of russian tanks, russian military personnel, russian missile, russian trucks crossed the internationally recognized border of Ukraine and started to open fire on human beings killing thousands.
This is what is prompting the support for Ukrainian people that are dying.
You are making a strawman when you say Russia is accused of high energy prices. The blockade of Ukrainian ports , the tanks driving in the Ukrainian fields preventing farmers to work, when they are not trying to kill them those kind of things cannot easily be blamed on the EU in an effort to inverse the cause and the consequence where Russia's current leadership declare the war and attempted to paint themselves as taking the initiative of the necessary conflict that it thought i'd win, and upon the biter realization that it wouldn't be occuring later accused the reaction of other nations to be the cause of the problem not assuming the consequences of their action on the world stage when it (predictlably) run out of control and it became the dead end it is now in a move perfectly described here :
- butnow.gif (3.29 MiB) Viewed 3448 times
sight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:04 am
Approximately with many other things the situation is similar. It is easier to blame the KGB agent Putin for all the sins of humanity than for politicians of other countries to admit their mistakes, it is very convenient.
Some people in this topic are trying to find the truth, or the reasons for what is happening, this is welcome, the desire to understand the origins of the problem allows you to avoid this in the future, but there is one simple reason why, it is unlikely to be able to find it here, everything is very simple, to understand any conflict, you need to listen to the arguments of both sides of the conflict, here, the second side of the conflict can be said to be absent, this is the forum of the European game developer, if the developers could throw off the statistics of the IP addresses of the countries of the answers on the forum, I think this would clearly show that there are practically no responses from users from Russia here, and those that still exist are unlikely to be heard. From the Russian player's side, it's like coming to a temple and starting to preach atheism to the parishioners of this temple, I think the analogy is very clear.
Hopefully you came here to enlight us, care to adress the few points i mentionned like the 3 murdered people namely Anna Politovskaia, Boris Nemtsov, Alexander Litvienko , or the report written both in english and russian from Russian politician ?
I am reading the whole thread and the articles that are linked, not just that, i am pretty well aware of the narratives repeatedly pushed by the agressing party in a forum called "we support Ukraine", i think it's again part of the intolerance you showed earlier when you say that people's different opinion are akin to propaganda and that one has to "replace another" or not.
You are trying to put 2 different thing at the same level and it's not the case,the thread is called "we support Ukraine" you can logically expect that people supporting Ukraine would express themselves and contribute to that thread. It's much less clear on the other hand, if you do not share the views why you come here to say people are wrong. Again playing the victimization speech, no-one ask you to go preach anything, you did it on your own and complain about the difficulty of the task that is questionnable to do in the first place. War apology/justification is difficult you say ? just don't do it, it's fine, it won't be missed having people justifying an ongoing war with lies. End the war, move russian troop back home and there is no need to preach for the war anymore. Easy.
