Factorio Forums

"that does not answer the problem. working is not an end, working is a mean to an end "

In factorio, the journey is very much the destination.

starlinvf wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:13 pm its kind of become a hallmark of a modern gamer to basically have no initiative of their own......

Ain't that the truth. Doesn't help that most games nurture that kind of attitude, intentionally or not.

which is why theres so much dissonance generated by their desire for "Purpose"/"Meaningful gameplay"/"Progression"/"Fun". An inability to define what these things are, is partly why they get so wrapped up in the long list of things they think "aren't". And an inability to find their own way leads to the problem of quickly losing attention. This isn't limited to games either...... pretty much all of social media, consumable media, and digital entertainment is further conditioning this (either on purpose, or as a side effect of trying to keep pace others doing it on purpose).

Funnily enough, I was going to say something kinda related to your rant, but decided not to as i didn't want to get into it. But since you mention it... a lot of what you say is true in this post. "When I was a young buck, we didn't have no smert fones with ther fancy apps, we had a Gameboy, and I only had one game for it! And there was no color, we had to imagine the colors! And the screen was so small that I had to buy a magnifying glass extension for it, which was really cool because it also had a light on it so I could play in the dark! And there was no recharging it either, you just always made sure you had extra batteries on you, because back then USB didn't even exist!" In all seriousness though, Achievements, and the hunters of achievements are quite possibly one of the worst things to happen to gaming in the last two decades, but far from the only really really bad thing. It's almost as if most people have allowed video games define what fun is for them, (and unfortunately you can draw parallels to the way the rest of society is operating as a whole outside of video games, but that's another discussion entirely). In most older games you were forced to set your own goals, and find your own joy in the replaying of a game. Lets take speed running for example. That itself is an example of setting your own goals, just taken to a competitive level. Sometimes speed runners compete with themselves but in general you're competing with yourself. But beyond just that, speed runners also set different conditions on their speed run. For example, there's full completion speed runs, minimum completion, no glitch runs, etc etc.

What achievements do, is they tell us what to do, and how to have fun. The easy answer is to ignore them entirely, but it's a lot harder than it sounds. The reality is that, when you play for achievements, you're no longer playing for yourself, you're playing for someone else (who you don't even know), who is telling you how to have fun.

Another thing is guides. A lot of new games practically require a guide in order to do certain things. This is because some of them were designed expecting the players to look up a guide anyways, or because they were made by a complete sadist. Now, there's nothing explicitly wrong with guides, but it is taking the easy way out, and shortening the time you will spend with a game, and taking away part of the fun of the game itself. That's why many people here on the forums tell new Factorio players to stay away from youtube and the forums and just do things on their own for a bit. But sometimes you really do get stuck though, or want to know more in depth technical information about a specific subject. In those kinds of situations it's good to have guides around. And in my personal experience I've learned that new players tend to have more fun anyways, when they don't have a walkthrough holding their hand every step of the way.

This video highlights how Super Metroid's game design is extremely well done in teaching you the mechanics of the game with barely saying a word of text. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcrdJD8whfE

Its not directly useful as a player.... but it does help you understand "why" a game does certain things, and help you recognize how its manipulating you.

As they say, knowledge is power.

This video pretty much hits home on the dissonant sensation I mentioned earlier, and almost perfectly slots into the OP's dilemma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ypOUn6rThM

Very good video, and it touches on some of the things I've already talked about. The Metroid and Zelda franchises are really good examples of the kind of game design they talk about towards the end of the video. They're also games that require you to be skilled at the game instead of just stacking numbers on top of each other until your numbers are bigger than your enemy's numbers, like how the vast majority of RPGs do. Not saying all RPGs are bad, it's just a thing they do. However, some RPGs ARE bad. As a major and popular example, I'll single out the Final Fantasy franchise and how every game after FF9 pretty much got rid of the open-world exploration aspect of it. I can't speak for every single title because I haven't played all of them, but the game's level design is more like you're on a track, and instead of exploring the world you're just kind of taken through it instead.

The super hard part is finding games that avoid these mental traps,

I can recommend Notrium. I think many Factorio players will enjoy it because it's pretty much the same concept. Dude crashlands on a hostile world and has to make it to space again, building stuff as he goes along. The difference is it's a survival game, and instead of digging up resources, you'll be scavenging random parts you find all over the place, feeding yourself, and keeping your flashlight charged. There's a lot of weapons you can improvise as well, pistols are a good starter weapon but if ammo is scarce you can attach that big metal rod you found to your basic particle accelerator and load up some pebbles you found on the ground to turn it into a shotgun. Things like that but I don't want to give too much of the stuff you can put together away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDX5hmt ... VYh8t11lYl

Had no idea what to expect going in but it's quite hilarious the way he presents and illustrates his character's journey, but
oh my lord, that beetle is cracking me up.

Its hard to suggest what games the OP could consider.... because I have no idea what kind of games they like. But I would suggest outright avoiding anything with RPG-lite leveling systems, stat based skill trees, or gear with visible numbers. Older, linear single player shooters would be good candidates. Things with Metroidvania type power structures (function based, rather then incremental power increases), classic RTS games, extremely narrative focused games, or a point/click adventure throwback title. Or Games with exploration elements or survival elements if you want to keep in the sandbox zone. These are notably better since it can leverage your ADD into something productive, and stimulates a lot of problem solving in your brain. I would also be a bit leery of games with comprehensive questing systems..... anything with a dotted line should be low on that list. The trouble, though, is that quest systems aren't necessarily bad.. ... and THATS the kind of situation you want to avoid. Ideally ones that give you a goal, but don't act as a walk through (excluding story driven ones); one that let you figure out your own solution.

Rogue-lite games are usually pretty bad too. The repetitiveness and assuredness of death despite your best efforts, plus a combination of other factors makes them pretty bad as far as game design goes in my opinion. Also, anything that has lootboxes, or extremely flashy graphics when something good happens is usually a red flag.

its that far too many lead you around with awareness bubble of only 10 meters

This is why I always turn off the glowy trail in games like Fable. Openworld games are usually pretty good. Almost every single Zelda game (except Zelda 2, that game is trash), most Grand Theft Auto games, despite them all being highly inappropriate on a good day (purple melee weapon in the police station, i'm looking at you). Honestly though, you're right, good games are hard to find.

When players "beat" a game.... and still expect it to continue on like it has been, but to infinity. An endless need for new quests, new stuff, new tricks.... and are only willing to put it down once it pisses them off for some arbitrary reason. Sandbox games don't even attempt at an illusion of offering this, which is why a lot of gamers don't understand it.

In my opinion this is one of the biggest pitfalls of MMOs. The worst part about them is that players will spend hours upon hours of grinding at the level cap, hoarding the best weapons with the best stats that they spent a probably ridiculous amount of time and in-game money trying to get, and then when the new expansion comes out all of their gear is effectively obsolete in an instant.

...despite how terrible the last decade has been overall in terms of treatment of gamers.

Quoted for Truth.

Squelch wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:03 pm That question just about sums up the frustration I have with the path some parts of the games industry have taken. It's the instant gratification vs creativity for its own sake dichotomy, and seems to have polarised the gaming community between "on rails" offerings with prescribed near instant rewards, and the freeform/sandbox where the player themselves drive their own narrative and goals.

You can have a game that has a good narrative that isn't also on rails. Many storytellers have gotten lazy when writing video game scripts though. They're too focused on snazzy new mechanics and flashy graphics. That's why there are a lot of retro gamers out there today.

• Experiment with the map generation settings. New challenges present themselves, and therefore new solutions are created as a result.

I find that randomizing the map generation works pretty well. All you need is dice.

• Multiplayer - Co-operative play can open up so many new ideas. PvP brings unexpected methods of combat beyond the predictability of the AI.

The problem with multiplayer is that not everybody enjoys playing with random people. There are WAY too many gamers out there who take things way too seriously, sometimes because of many of the aforementioned problems and influences driving them into certain playstyles that aren't healthy, especially when playing with others.

[*]Finding creative assemblies of buildings. Make them more compact, faster, efficient, modular - save them as blueprints, use and constantly improve.

Smaller, faster, etc isn't always better. The thing about this laundry list that you're giving is that it almost sounds like you want to set goals for other people. I know you're just giving ideas, but it's all about that extrinsic and intrinsic motivation to set goals, kinda like how the video highlighted.

[*]Consider creating your own scenario/narrative. Write it down, or even attempt to create it as a game scenario to share with others.
[/list]

While this might be good advice for an aspiring author, I don't think the average Factorio player would have any interest in it.

blazespinnaker wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:05 am "that does not answer the problem. working is not an end, working is a mean to an end "

In factorio, the journey is very much the destination.

Such is life.

TheRangerLOL wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:25 am

[*]Finding creative assemblies of buildings. Make them more compact, faster, efficient, modular - save them as blueprints, use and constantly improve.

Smaller, faster, etc isn't always better. The thing about this laundry list that you're giving is that it almost sounds like you want to set goals for other people. I know you're just giving ideas, but it's all about that extrinsic and intrinsic motivation to set goals, kinda like how the video highlighted.

No, giving ideas is not about extrinsic/intrinsic motivation. That video is half-true and half-false, like any other thesis that divides all things into two poles without 50 grades between them. Three-color vision is also limited in the same way; unexpected awards are also limited, because 3 < 50^2. Because real players, that are free of synthetic experiment, are much more different.

I say, in real games we have a mix of various motivations. "New ideas" can be either motivation: extrinsic, or intrinsic, or whatever. How they can be intrinsic? They can become intrinsic. Single player imagination is way narrower than whole community; is it possible that player will love some foreign idea? Absolutely possible! Yes, my imagination has limitations, so I read forums, I borrow some ideas, I modify them, and then I do like them.

And this may not work for you.

But at least we tried.

TheRangerLOL wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:25 am

Squelch wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:03 pm That question just about sums up the frustration I have with the path some parts of the games industry have taken. It's the instant gratification vs creativity for its own sake dichotomy, and seems to have polarised the gaming community between "on rails" offerings with prescribed near instant rewards, and the freeform/sandbox where the player themselves drive their own narrative and goals.

You can have a game that has a good narrative that isn't also on rails. Many storytellers have gotten lazy when writing video game scripts though. They're too focused on snazzy new mechanics and flashy graphics. That's why there are a lot of retro gamers out there today.

Absolutely! My intention was not to make too broad a stroke, and some games definitely strike the balance, or offer a "different" perspective other than run and gun, fetch and carry, or cap grind. More often than not, these same games tend to have an editor of some form unless they are purely sandbox.

• Experiment with the map generation settings. New challenges present themselves, and therefore new solutions are created as a result.

I find that randomizing the map generation works pretty well. All you need is dice.

The fine grained control Factorio offers allows for some pretty interesting maps, and consequently, new challenges as a result. The hint at a goal here is to beat those new challenges.

• Multiplayer - Co-operative play can open up so many new ideas. PvP brings unexpected methods of combat beyond the predictability of the AI.

The problem with multiplayer is that not everybody enjoys playing with random people. There are WAY too many gamers out there who take things way too seriously, sometimes because of many of the aforementioned problems and influences driving them into certain playstyles that aren't healthy, especially when playing with others.

There's no disagreement with you on the potential pitfalls of multiplayer. I think it's safe to assume that most gamers already know that their gaming experience may differ. My hint here was to seek out the more positive side, find other players that inspire creativity, or are good tacticians. Shared experiences are fertile ground for new ideas. If the OP is so inclined, they could get creative with griefing (not my cup of tea, but each to their own)

• Finding creative assemblies of buildings. Make them more compact, faster, efficient, modular - save them as blueprints, use and constantly improve.

Smaller, faster, etc isn't always better. The thing about this laundry list that you're giving is that it almost sounds like you want to set goals for other people. I know you're just giving ideas, but it's all about that extrinsic and intrinsic motivation to set goals, kinda like how the video highlighted.

You are correct, they are not always better,faster... But, they are your creations, and the mere process of trying to reach one or all of those objectives can be the goal and bring the satisfaction that is craved.

Yes, this was most certainly a laundry list, and in fact was heavily abridged before posting to avoid the very same accusation of prescribing how to play. I will defend myself, and and others offering suggestions, by saying that's all they are - suggestions on finding new goals, and not how to play.

I make no assumptions about what motivates the OP, so can only suggest different trains of thought. The title of this thread indicates that they have a creative (gamer's?) block, and sometimes, someone somewhere gives just the right spark to break that block. This is my humble offering.

[*]Consider creating your own scenario/narrative. Write it down, or even attempt to create it as a game scenario to share with others.
[/list]

While this might be good advice for an aspiring author, I don't think the average Factorio player would have any interest in it.

I would hope that the average Factorio player has quite a broad outlook and skillset, so don't be so quick to assume. Not necessarily on an individual basis, although there are many forum denizens that I feel could be described as polymaths, but more as a whole. In my time as a player, and within the industry, I have come across many different types of "Gamers" aspiring authors definitely being one of them. In fact, I know of at least one by their own admission was a very bad player, so decided to simply write fan fiction. They were then hired to test the game (from a poor player perspective) and to contribute story ideas to possibly be included as arcs within the game.

Intrinsic interest can take many forms. Sometimes the smallest of prompts may encourage someone to follow a different path.

Squelch wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:24 pm If the OP is so inclined, they could get creative with griefing (not my cup of tea, but each to their own)

That is terrible advice. The only people who should be griefed are your friends.

I make no assumptions about what motivates the OP

I make no assumptions either, I just don't fill my post with subtle keywords.

fderty wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:36 pm guys I need your help.
I think that game has amazing mechanics so I want to play it.
However I'm not interested in its intended objective (launching a satellite to what end ???)
Neither am I interested in slaughtering aliens, having all the techs, owning a big factory for the purpose of owning a big factory. etc...
what do ?

Looks like you're not interessted in any of the things that make Factorio fun.

I play Factorio for years, started with 0.13 if I remember right, started a new map basically after every mayor update.
And I never was short on ideas what to do, there's always something to try out, optimize, and of course make the factory bigger and faster til the UPS-brake hits you (Which starts another optimization process).
In fact, I never had any other game in my life that gave me so much playtime for the money.

If you want a goal, getting all of the steam achievements is a nice goal to aim for.

fderty wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:18 pm not interested in that except for mods maybe. Is there a mod that gives you a true purpose ?

You could try spaceX. It doesn't have a steep learning curve, but is very expansive and well polished. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/space-exploration

AmericanPatriot wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:10 am

fderty wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:18 pm not interested in that except for mods maybe. Is there a mod that gives you a true purpose ?

You could try spaceX. It doesn't have a steep learning curve, but is very expansive and well polished. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/space-exploration

^^^ THIS !!!
Space Exploration has made Factorio in to a brand new game for me, love it
Best mod ever.(ok,Bottleneck,Squeak Through and Creative Mod are brill too)

Well, after you get your rocket, the only thing left to do is break the game. Go to the limits of what belts/inserters can do and see how efficient you can design things.

If you want to push throughput further, you'll have to spam roboports + logistic bot but imho that is just plain boring. There is nothing to design anymore. Nothing to debug. Just a chest+inserter+assembler. Meh.

@AmericanPatriot:
Ooh that mod does look interesting. :O Definitely have to check it out at some point when I am done design-derping in Vanilla.

Very interesting video.

@OP, if you only reached green science, you haven't seen most of the game. There is no goal, the rocket is a lie (just kidding).

A word of warning: The recipes in SpaceX, once you actually get to space, rapidly become a very real pain to setup and debug. Mod is very, very fond of loops and catalysts.

On the other hand, it lets you build spaceships. Which are awesome.

Check out Mindustry, my friends have been co-oping the campaign together and its challenging but a blast. They recently added a bunch of content, including new Mechs and Naval units, revamped campaign, and new enemy units. It actually gets content patches unlike Factorio which hasn't seen much new content in 3+ years. I'd say Mindustry is a better game, Factorio is a better Sandbox.

Mythoss wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:29 am Check out Mindustry, my friends have been co-oping the campaign together and its challenging but a blast. They recently added a bunch of content, including new Mechs and Naval units, revamped campaign, and new enemy units. It actually gets content patches unlike Factorio which hasn't seen much new content in 3+ years. I'd say Mindustry is a better game, Factorio is a better Sandbox.

Yoo hoo!(i play that too)
BTW,I thought that u meant the Cleroi and the Collaris as a mech,Retusa,Oxynoe,Cyerce,Aegires,Navanax as a naval,Erekir as revamped campaign,but I checked the date and decided that ur meaning 104->126.
PS:Doing the 104 campaign is no problem for me but I have problems on the North Pole on Serpulo(beside Nuclear Production Complex and Impact 0078)which i think is impossible to be done without losing sectors due to "vulnerable" and not using foo "assume server is not in strict mode"+z key(provides ender pearls for u) in 135 which the launch pad has cooldown and its impossible to instantly deliver a core blueprint of materials to a sector before it gets lost.

OP, I feel your pain, I generally like games with a story and often get bored with sandbox mode. But Factorio once you get into it does create a certain itch that needs to be scratched, in my case I am into this game for over 6500 hours according to steam, yes I need to get a life.

I think the answer to your issue lies with mods, these 3 come to mind

Warptorio 2 + W2 Expanded - a difficult survival mode with interesting side missions

Mining Space Industries 2 - has side missions and end game goals of supplying Earth with specific items, has a real twist at the end.

Story Missions - a series of set missions on established maps/bases with a story to go with it.

Note - all of these are very challenging and require a decent amount of under standing of the game mechanics.

Warptorio is probably the hardest and I recommend combat mods such as Modular Turrets, also Abandoned Ruins add some interesting flavor and random goodies too.

Playing these might also give you an itch to play the regular game.

You're answering a post whose author has been active 2 months and a half almost 2 years ago. Not sure OP will ever read this.

Other people read this. Even vanilla ideas are interesting to ME.

should be sticky in gameplay help. I quite often read this, where people seem to be lost at some point.

A lot of hot opinions presented as facts. I don't want to be "good" at an rpg game. I also enjoy dying in roguielikes, where the odds may be just too unfair to win.
I appreciate factorio not holding my hand. To each his own is a principle to live buy.

I also would like to underline, that TS has not even managed to get past blue science, and to get to blue, literally sped up time with cheat engine, "but has no goal to play".
It's okay that some games don't suit some people - there will be no game which suits everyone.

fderty wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:36 pm guys I need your help.
I think that game has amazing mechanics so I want to play it.
However I'm not interested in its intended objective (launching a satellite to what end ???)
Neither am I interested in slaughtering aliens, having all the techs, owning a big factory for the purpose of owning a big factory. etc...
what do ?

After 14 k hours... I gotta build that completely modular base which can be copy pasted with train stations , but im too lazy, pending to get bored of f2p diablo immortal