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Harkonnen wrote:Ok, Tier-2 stays Now the question - should tier-2 speed module consume 3 tier-1 modules (instead of 4) or maybe 4 circuits instead of 5 to compensate for tier-1 speed modules consumption by other recipes?

I'm not sure that it makes a difference. The consumption of T1 modules in science should be irrelevant. To me it's like you are asking if iron gear wheels should be cheaper because they are used more heavily in 0.15 than previous. If you think that T2 & T3 modules are just too expensive then it might be worth changing, but just because an item is used elsewhere makes little difference IMO as it's only relevant where it's being used.

Personally, I think that T1 modules are too introduced too late: They should just use green circuits (maybe 20 or 25 of them, so similar cost) and should be available with green science. The main issue with T1 & T2 is that their usefulness is too short. By the time you get to researching them & manufacturing them, it's possible to skip the tiers going straight for T3. Also, making them available earlier (before oil) will more evenly spread out the tech introduction. Green science really doesn't give you any new interesting mechanics. I think T1 modules would be a great gap filler here.

Edit:
To clarify, There are a bunch of things that are interesting with green science. Trains, Circuit networks, Construction bots, etc, but none of them are widespread applicable. I think that most maps played would not have a train on it, nor a circuit network. Everything else with greed science is an upgrade of an existing mechanic: power, belts, etc. I think that moving modules back here will remove the "mechanic" pressure that comes later, when you get logistics robots, decent module armor, etc, while also filling a mechanic "hole". (does this idea need it's own topic?)

BenSeidel wrote:

Harkonnen wrote:Ok, Tier-2 stays Now the question - should tier-2 speed module consume 3 tier-1 modules (instead of 4) or maybe 4 circuits instead of 5 to compensate for tier-1 speed modules consumption by other recipes?

I'm not sure that it makes a difference. The consumption of T1 modules in science should be irrelevant. To me it's like you are asking if iron gear wheels should be cheaper because they are used more heavily in 0.15 than previous. If you think that T2 & T3 modules are just too expensive then it might be worth changing, but just because an item is used elsewhere makes little difference IMO as it's only relevant where it's being used.

Personally, I think that T1 modules are too introduced too late: They should just use green circuits (maybe 20 or 25 of them, so similar cost) and should be available with green science. The main issue with T1 & T2 is that their usefulness is too short. By the time you get to researching them & manufacturing them, it's possible to skip the tiers going straight for T3. Also, making them available earlier (before oil) will more evenly spread out the tech introduction. Green science really doesn't give you any new interesting mechanics. I think T1 modules would be a great gap filler here.

Edit:
To clarify, There are a bunch of things that are interesting with green science. Trains, Circuit networks, Construction bots, etc, but none of them are widespread applicable. I think that most maps played would not have a train on it, nor a circuit network. Everything else with greed science is an upgrade of an existing mechanic: power, belts, etc. I think that moving modules back here will remove the "mechanic" pressure that comes later, when you get logistics robots, decent module armor, etc, while also filling a mechanic "hole". (does this idea need it's own topic?)

Totally agree on everything said by this gentleman. +1 for moving T1 towards early game. And i would also consider moving T3 further into the late game, but there is stuff like armor and rockets depending on it...

BenSeidel wrote:The consumption of T1 modules in science should be irrelevant.

This is correct. It can make sense to think about balancing module costs in terms of basic resources costs (iron ore, copper ore, oil - with respect to what other things the player might want at the same time cost and with respect to what's likely available both in terms of resource amounts and in terms of processing tech), but it makes no sense to think about it in terms of produced items when what is produced is completely under player control (i.e., they can and do just produce more T1 speed modules).

BenSeidel wrote:Personally, I think that T1 modules are too introduced too late: They should just use green circuits (maybe 20 or 25 of them, so similar cost) and should be available with green science.

This (the proposed recipe change) I (sort of) disagree with because, at least the way I play, I think this removes a meaningful choice. (Though this particular meaningful choice may already be fading into a distant memory anyways as of 0.15.x.)

I tend to play with higher biter settings, so right now what happens is that there is a race to reduce pollution to reduce attacks to reduce time and other resources spent on defenses/repairs/replacements. T1 efficiency modules are a huge part of this effort (solar panels being the other main early component). Right now T1 efficiency modules depend on oil, and that's where the choice comes in because with oil you start out "screwed up" - you need lots of petroleum gas and nothing else, but you can't do cracking, and you either have to "waste" your heavy and light oil (make solid fuel out of it and burn it, or even just dispose of it manually) or you have to keep adding storage for it. That problem (and the desire to resolve it) creates a pressure to go for advanced oil. Any consumption of oil, and especially a base-wide-change-type consumption of oil (like for putting T1 efficiency modules everywhere) highly conflicts with getting the oil situation under control. This conflict is good as it creates a meaningful choice: Do I go for T1 modules now and just continue to deal with the messed up oil situation -- possibly permanently losing a good chunk of my starting area oil to something like solid fuel -- or do I go for advanced oil first (which requires blue science - and is quite possibly the first blue science item on the agenda making it a big step), creating even more pollution in the meantime and inviting even more biter attacks (with biters evolving the whole time)?

(This really tends to be the pivot point of the whole game - once T1 efficiency modules and solar panels are in place, and you have enough resources left over (without having to expand) to tech up to lasers, the whole biter situation tends to go from "umm, I might have a problem" to "OK, that's much better". And (in vanilla) it only gets easier from there. I.e. the actual game is over and the rest is just sandboxy building of stuff.)

Unfortunately the higher oil settings in 0.15.x already make that choice too easy (just always go for the T1 efficiency modules right away - there's plenty of oil so don't worry about wasting some of it). T1 efficiency modules not even requiring oil at all would eliminate the choice entirely, if it hasn't been already. (In theory, if there's a fairly limited amount of iron and/or copper, it could introduce a new meaningful choice. But let's just say I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for those resources to be consistently and finely balanced to the point where that happens. Please devs, prove me wrong and balance your game!!! You'd have to make it an option though, because many players will complain loudly about a properly balanced game being "too hard". Maybe make the death world mode by default be balanced -- surely no one can complain about something called "death world" being "hard"?)

All that said, I think there's merit to trying to spread out the modules over the course of a game. 0.15.x already does this to some extent by requiring higher tier science for higher tier modules. Maybe the science cost of T2/T3 could also be significantly increased to spread them out further. (If this were 0.14.x or earlier I would say you'd want to then decouple T3 modules from power armor Mk2. But as of 0.15.x there's not as much need to go very far outside of one's base - i.e. no need for artifacts, so not as much pressure to acquire Mk2 armor.)

BenSeidel wrote:Green science really doesn't give you any new interesting mechanics. I think T1 modules would be a great gap filler here.

Please note that green science ALREADY yields T1 modules (AND the oil needed to produce them). As discussed above, going for T1 modules before any blue science is totally an option (and one that I have made use of many times). If anything, above I actually overstate the case of oil being "screwed up" before blue science because it really doesn't take very many storage tanks to just save up all of your heavy and light oil while you make T1 efficiency modules, and then you can crack it all later once you have advanced oil, so you lose nothing (except some very small amount of resources spent on storage tanks, and maybe a pump later to empty them out fully so you can mine them if you don't want them there anymore). Not only is producing T1 modules before blue science already an option, but as noted earlier, the extra oil in 0.15.x just about makes it a total "no brainer". All "no brainers" are bad game design. Making the choice even more of a "no brainer" is not a good thing.

Dimanper wrote:Please note that green science ALREADY yields T1 modules (AND the oil needed to produce them). As discussed above, going for T1 modules before any blue science is totally an option (and one that I have made use of many times). If anything, above I actually overstate the case of oil being "screwed up" before blue science because it really doesn't take very many storage tanks to just save up all of your heavy and light oil while you make T1 efficiency modules, and then you can crack it all later once you have advanced oil, so you lose nothing (except some very small amount of resources spent on storage tanks, and maybe a pump later to empty them out fully so you can mine them if you don't want them there anymore). Not only is producing T1 modules before blue science already an option, but as noted earlier, the extra oil in 0.15.x just about makes it a total "no brainer". All "no brainers" are bad game design. Making the choice even more of a "no brainer" is not a good thing.

Sorry, yes T1 modules only do require green science. To clarify, I'm not specifically talking about "everything you can get just with green science", more "everything you get immediately when you start green science". So, to me, red circuits (and batteries pre 0.15) always "feel" like blue science, even though they are gained from and used in many other green science recipes. This is because once you have red circuits built you essentially have blue science anyway. So it's more about what is immediately available to you after building green science, or another way of looking at it: what you can get by hand crafting some green science packs (as I have done many times before I get my green science build to get circuit networks or a train, both are situational).

Your example of the oil situation being "screwed up" is a very large overstatement. If you are worried about pollution you would never destroy any oil. So that really is a no-brainer. As for efficiency modules vs advanced oil processing, go efficiency modules if you are being attacked too much. So I would also class that as a no-brainer as well. The amount of pollution that one efficiency module costs to make is far less than the amount of pollution it will save in a refinery or mining drill. But to me that is really a "minor" build order issue anyway. The amount of time it would take to set up both blue and modules isn't much after you get oil, plastic and red circuits.

It also depends on if you are talking about a new player or a seasoned player. If it's a seasoned player, then they should be able to figure this out for themselves, if it's a new player then they probably won't see modules until after blue science.

Try looking at it from the point of a new player. Once they get their green science build done they have to do/figure out oil. This is a long and arduous process mainly because they don't "see" anything out of it until blue science (much better now btw without batteries). This issue is mainly caused because there is no meaningful mechanics deployed in green science (for a new player). If you compare green to any other colour you can see that green is missing some more accessible mechanics, or that oil is missing some form of instant gratification for it's completion.

Red science unlocks:
Belts
Inserters
Assembly machines
Walls
Turrets
Machine gun
Steel pickaxe (mmm... steel pickaxe...)

Green science unlocks:
Trains
Circuits
Blue science (aka, oil)

Blue science unlocks:
Personal roboport
First really usable module armor
electric furnaces
substations

Millertary science unlocks:
Lasers
Flamethrower
Tank!!!
Shields
Have you seen how shiny the cannon shell icons are?

Purple science unlocks:
meh... do high-tech first

High-Tech science unlocks:
Beacons
Logistics network (because you hand craft the required purple science)
Roboport mk2

It must be noted that I have intentionally left out most stuff that needs an oil product from green science. This is because I don't think that their production over blue science is a meaningful choice. To me a meaningful choice should affect your overall strategy, while this is just a minor build order issue. New players could spend a few hours getting the oil setup and working, then spend some time getting red circuits (more of a distributed timescale as they are used a lot and will need to be upgraded a few times) where as it would take about 30 minutes for each new thing everything after that, maybe a bit longer with electric engines and batteries.

more "everything you get immediately when you start green science"

You get nothing immediately. If you want "it" (whatever "it" is) you have to:
1. research it
2. have/get adequate resources for it
3. produce it
Your real beef appears to be that you don't like having a "too many steps" production chain (oil -> petro -> plastic -> red circuits -> efficiency modules).

So, to me, red circuits (and batteries pre 0.15) always "feel" like blue science, even though they are gained from and used in many other green science recipes.

So, your feelings, which are factually incorrect, are the basis for your argument.

This is because once you have red circuits built you essentially have blue science anyway.

Once you have green science, you essentially have T1 efficiency modules anyway.
What? That logic only applies when you say it?
(Oh, that's right. You're that person who likes to make self-contradicting arguments.)

hand crafting some green science packs (as I have done many times before

Hmmm... You know automation only requires red science, right? I suppose automation "feels like" green science to you.

If you are worried about pollution you would never destroy any oil. So that really is a no-brainer.

Except I'm always worried about pollution, yet here's me in my current 0.14.22 playthrough making solid fuel and burning it up in the boilers. (It's a low-coal map and I was concerned about there being enough coal for plastic later on.) If you're talking about the "choice" between converting it to solid fuel and manually discarding it by mining and replacing a tank, I never presented that as a meaningful choice - just noted the possibility of such destruction as I've seen people actually do that to get things working again. (Oh, and look at that map I linked, a reasonable stack of red circuit assemblers, T1 efficiency modules everywhere, and no blue science anywhere, no filter inserter production, no battery production, no acid production, no sulfur production, no steel production to speak of (just a couple of furnaces mainly for more electric furnace production - certainly not enough steel left-over to support a standard 12-stack of blue science), no inserters for blue-science on my labs... Doesn't "feel" like blue science at all.)

As for efficiency modules vs advanced oil processing, go efficiency modules if you are being attacked too much. So I would also class that as a no-brainer as well.

Except in 0.14.x it wasn't always a no-brainer, especially on harder settings. The reason for that is because there would often be inadequate easy-access oil, meaning you have to expand to get more oil. And the only early-ish tech that is good against hordes of biters and their bases/worms is lasers. With limited oil (and especially with no advanced oil processing) your choice can be lasers OR efficiency modules, not both - not if you want enough lasers to safely get the job done. (In theory you can have both if you wait long enough as oil is infinite -- but the biters may eat you before infinity arrives. If going for lasers before efficiency modules, it may of course make sense to get advanced oil processing around the same time as you're going to need battery production anyways, and if you're tight on starting oil and need more lasers to expand having cracking to produce more petro can be worth fending off biters from a base a bit longer. Once more oil is secured, efficiency modules are then of course high on the todo list.)

But to me that is really a "minor" build order issue anyway.

A choice which can decide whether or not your base survives is not "minor".

If it's a seasoned player, then they should be able to figure this out for themselves

What are you talking about? The question is about the game making meaningful choices available. No matter how "seasoned" a player is, they can't "figure out" how to make a meaningful choice that the game doesn't present.

if it's a new player then they probably won't see modules until after blue science.

That's the new player's choice. The tech screen lays out exactly what they need for whatever tech they want.

Try looking at it from the point of a new player.

Sorry, but you're the one that needs to try harder in that area. A new player is in a world of wonder - everything is new. Every time they research they have something new they can make (or get an upgrade). The 1st time playing the game (at least early to mid game) has never been a problem for Factorio (at least since I've been at it, which was 0.11.x). The problem really starts with the 2nd playthrough where too much is the same as the 1st playthrough.

Once they get their green science build done they have to do/figure out oil. This is a long and arduous process mainly because they don't "see" anything out of it until blue science

What? Do you even read the forums? The #1 problem new players have with oil is that it's "screwed up", as I described earlier. (And just to be clear devs, I'm not asking for it to be "fixed"!) They don't know what to do with light/heavy oil, or worse yet, they don't know they should be doing anything with them and can't figure out why their petroleum gas stopped almost as soon as it started (or worse still, haven't even managed to debug their problem back to oil yet).
Knowing what you can or can't get with a given level of science is trivial, especially since the Factorio devs have added the little "tech bottles" to every single tech in the tech screen. And the tech tree shows you exactly what you need to research to get whatever you want with any tech. Even a newbie can peruse all the techs with just red+green and see immediately everything they might get with the science they've got. They can then choose a direction and research/build towards it.

This issue is mainly caused because there is no meaningful mechanics deployed in green science (for a new player).

You're talking gibberish again. (You're assigning some meaning to the phrase "no meaningful mechanics deployed in green science" that only exists in your head and no one else's - i.e. failing to communicate clearly.) All kinds of good stuff is enabled by green science. You just want to make efficiency modules easier. That doesn't even make green science seem any more or less valuable, so wouldn't even really achieve the effect you seem to be going for -- it just makes producing T1 modules easier.

instant gratification

Maybe you should go work for Bioware.
Skinner box != meaningful choice generator. It's essentially the opposite. It's shallow, not meaningful.
And "pick a goal -> work for selected goal -> reach selected goal" is the core of Factorio, not instant gratification. And you argue that green science needs some kind of instant-reward added, which would seem to indicate that you don't understand that for many players seeing their green science build working is part of the reward - it's a successful step along the way to whatever greater goal they're working on. And especially for newer players, they're not building green science "just because" - rather they're going to have a specific reason, some upgrade or item they really want that's the main reason they're building green science in the first place. They don't need some stupid "mouse treat" popping out just because they've made progress towards that goal - the progress is the reward.

Logistics network (because you hand craft the required purple science)

I've never hand-crafted production science in my life. True story.
(Yes, I've got an 0.15.x game with both production science and high-tech science.)

It must be noted that I have intentionally left out most stuff that needs an oil product from green science.

Yes, you've left out a lot of the good green science stuff (T1 modules, construction robots, accumulators, logistics robots+slots -- though personally I tend to not use that last one)... because it's all counter to your argument.
And you've also left out some pretty key green stuff that doesn't even require oil (solar panels, military stuff {piercing ammo, grenades, bullet + gun turret upgrades}, steel furnaces, landfill), presumably for the same reason.
Even more "mysteriously", you've left out big/medium electric poles which can be pretty important if you find yourself in the middle of a desert (very little wood for electric poles - possibly having to fight biters just to get scraps of wood!), but somehow substations (which are never critical in any vanilla game) were important enough to put in your blue science list.
Your lists are a textbook case of "biased".

Well I'm not going to respond to a piece by piece dissection of my post, because you're just taking things out of context.
If you don't understand the point that I am trying to make that is fine.

BenSeidel wrote:Well I'm not going to respond to a piece by piece dissection of my post, because you're just taking things out of context.
If you don't understand the point that I am trying to make that is fine.

Haha agreed. That is probably the highest density of out-of-context quotes I've ever seen

BenSeidel wrote:Logistics network (because you hand craft the required purple science)

Personally, there is only 1 and only 1 reason that I would ever hand-craft any sort of science whatsoever: crafting red science before I get my production line set up.
Personally, I'd rather set up a science factory so I can have a constant supply of science packs than craft some by hand & need to do the same think later. As long as I have raw materials, my factory can make science, and I just have to worry about which techs to research first.

I don't see why someone would want to craft science by hand when they have the technology & resources to set up an automated production line for it. It might be complex, but it will be worth it (because then the factory will be able to endlessly produce science as long as there are materials), and it's possible to change the production setup after the logistics network has been researched.

Harkonnen wrote:Ok, Tier-2 stays Now the question - should tier-2 speed module consume 3 tier-1 modules (instead of 4) or maybe 4 circuits instead of 5 to compensate for tier-1 speed modules consumption by other recipes?

I like the suggestion of making Speed 2s cheaper (instead of cheaper Speed 3s, which are currently in the game).

Timing-wise, I think tier 1 modules are available nice and early in the game. In my marathon run, for example, I spent my first few hundred red circuits on modules. I got blue science going afterward.

Opportunity costs are good for the game. If folks want to rush up to bots or electric furnaces, that's totally fine - it just means that it will be hard to afford modules early on with this playstyle.