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Please don’t mix spilling when canceling crafting .vs. spilling when inventory shrinks!

Luckily we have this already: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96364 Smarter Armor Behavior on Quickbar / Swapping armors / Manage item spilling when swapping armor

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Strange, how opinions change with time. Five years ago this behavior has been celebrated by YouTubers as new and innovative game-element. You have this hidden crafting inventory. Players can use it to pick up much more, than what they can carry by pure inventory. Nowadays essential for speed runs.
And it’s much simpler since then to pickup the items - even without bots - since then.

My guess: wube will not change this.

Simple reason IMHO: if you want to cancel crafting, then what will change, if you are asked, before the game begins to spill? You need to cancel it, so do it. NOW! Don’t bother me with questions, I need to go fast, because every second might count (crafting will produce useless items in the meantime).

ssilk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:12 am Simple reason IMHO: if you want to cancel crafting, then what will change, if you are asked, before the game begins to spill? You need to cancel it, so do it. NOW! Don’t bother me with questions, I need to go fast, because every second might count (crafting will produce useless items in the meantime).

I can think of many situations where cancelling the ones you can and not dropping stuff everywhere is better...
Accidental cancels.
Cancelling all the crafts, when only most of them needed cancelling - particularly for belts/rails
"Oh, wait, let me drop that 1 iron rod instead of the 200 copper wire" and other similar cases...
"Oh, I'll put down a chest to put the random stuff in"

I often find most of my inventory space is occupied by e.g. 1 sulfur, 5 plastic, 2 iron rods, 6 engines, etc.
I would happily drop these on the ground so I don't have to go around and pick everything else up.

Also, basing how a game should act on the preferences of the very top players, speed-runners, or any other such category, can do spectacular damage to the average player experience. A game should be built for the average player and the new player, rather than the extreme players. I'm not saying messing up speedrunners is ok, just that they will be overrepresented, and you need to consider the average player.
I'm sure speedrunners wouldn't care about dropping items everywhere, but most players would feel the urge to pick them all up, resulting in a messy annoying task out of a relatively simple mistake. The game punishes them for something simple and easy.
You can say that drones fix this, but they only kind of do. The fact that deconstruction planners can be used to filter items on the ground isn't exactly well known, and is very seldom used. Picking stuff up by hand is common, so the natural conclusion is that this is a manual task.
Also, most hand crafting is done before drones are used much, so again, it ends up as a manual task.

The suggestion also doesn't necessitate a complete stop to dropping items in this case, just a prompt to make it take 2 clicks instead of 1... you could also have a setting to turn the prompt off if it really upsets people.

ssilk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:12 am Strange, how opinions change with time. Five years ago this behavior has been celebrated by YouTubers as new and innovative game-element. You have this hidden crafting inventory. Players can use it to pick up much more, than what they can carry by pure inventory. Nowadays essential for speed runs.

That's interesting to read. When I first discovered the hidden and unlimited nature of the crafting inventory, and literally knowing nothing about Factorio, I thought I found an exploit. At the time I didn't know speed runs even exist.

However, today I see it just as some game mechanic that could help in earlier stages of a freeplay map.

EsX_Raptor wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 9:52 pm

leoch wrote:remove resources from the inventory after completion (but "freezing" items in use)

I support this.

Edit: Instead of freezing items, remove them from the player's inventory while not allowing them to pick more items beyond their carrying capacity.

I agree with this right here.

They've already removed other free sources of inventory (ie, toolbelt). This one is even less obvious and more difficult to actually use in that sense, so might as well.

ssilk wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:12 am Please don’t mix spilling when canceling crafting .vs. spilling when inventory shrinks!

Strange, how opinions change with time. Five years ago this behavior has been celebrated by YouTubers as new and innovative game-element. You have this hidden crafting inventory. Players can use it to pick up much more, than what they can carry by pure inventory. Nowadays essential for speed runs.
And it’s much simpler since then to pickup the items - even without bots - since then.

My guess: wube will not change this.

Sorry to have mixed two topic that have their own distinct thread ssilk, i thought it was about "unvoluntary spilling" but it is more precise

I do like the idea of hidden crafting inventory, i do not like the idea of it potentially dropping on the floor with a single missclick.

( If you shift-queued a large stack in 1 click, want to cancel 1 other craft, but crafting queue re-align due an item being crafted and you missclick the stack of shift-queued item canceling it and covering your base of material.)

I use the hidden crafting inventory more on early game when i have to move from point A to point B with limted inventory, to carry more belts/furnaces/inserters/electric poles/ mining drill. When unlocking car or trains i just use their extra inventory for the same purpose and mostly at this point i no longer handcraft things.

Tertius wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:39 pm You can order bots to pick up items on the ground with a proper deconstruction planner: put a blank deconstruction planner in your inventory, then edit its filter. Go to the surprise box category and add the "item on the ground".

I didn't know about that and i've played several thousand hours . It is now one of the rare thing that will ALWAYS be in my shortcut bar, alongside with a decon planner to remove trees and rocks. Maybe i should combine them. This is because apart from the "spilling" there if often time item laying on the ground when you remove a belt and you don't have space in your inventory. I feel urged to pick them up.

It won't help me in the earlier stage before i have the personnal robots which is also when i use the hidden crafting inventory the most. But it will help throughout the course of the whole game and this is more than 90% time of a game for me.

Guys, I didn't suggest blocking crafting slots or making separate crafting slots in my original post. I don't understand why my post was merged with this post? My suggestion is very simple - just 1 line of code - display a message. For the development team, this will not be any work, but it will greatly simplify the life of new players. And if you need speedrunners that litter the entire map with things, make a separate setting for them in the game - but I honestly doubt that speedrunners throw items on the ground during a speedrun and without this feature they will delete the game. Again, 1-2 speedrunners are not thousands of new players. Do you need 2 speedrunners or new players? I don't understand this.
In any case, I solved 99% of the problem in my mod HandCraftPriority. But I would like this message `Inventary full` to be added to vanilla

SerhiiS wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:22 am Guys, I didn't suggest blocking crafting slots or making separate crafting slots in my original post. I don't understand why my post was merged with this post?

Because the issue you want to solve is the same. You’re merely suggesting solving it via another means. There’s no sense in having different threads on the same topic.

@SerhiS it’s just the way this goes: suggestions are “just ideas”. There is this problem and I suggest to solve it like so. There is no property. There is nothing to prevent turning the idea by 180 degrees.

The community gives developers options they can choose from and we have no further influence what really comes out in the end.

ssilk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:20 am @SerhiS it’s just the way this goes: suggestions are “just ideas”. There is this problem and I suggest to solve it like so. There is no property. There is nothing to prevent turning the idea by 180 degrees.

The community gives developers options they can choose from and we have no further influence what really comes out in the end.

Do developers really read all comments on posts? I think developers want to see posts sorted by suggestions/ideas. And you sorted them by problems. I myself have been developing for 10 years and I'm afraid that in this version only moderators read my proposal. In this option, there is no possibility of searching for ideas. Although the forum is called Ideas and Suggestions. How is a developer going to be able to find any idea if you've grouped them not by ideas, but by problems?

This is of course my opinion. I would ask the developer how he feels comfortable looking for ideas in this forum.

Maybe I should have just changed the thread title to something more unique. May be "Add warning message on cancel hand craft overloaded".
What the topic starter suggests is to rewrite the entire inventory from scratch, which of course no one will do. And I do not propose to change anything in inventory and crafting. What I'm suggesting is something quite different - to add a more friendly game behavior to the player.

SerhiiS wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:31 am

ssilk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:20 am @SerhiS it’s just the way this goes: suggestions are “just ideas”. There is this problem and I suggest to solve it like so. There is no property. There is nothing to prevent turning the idea by 180 degrees.

The community gives developers options they can choose from and we have no further influence what really comes out in the end.

Do developers really read all comments on posts? I think developers want to see posts sorted by suggestions/ideas. And you sorted them by problems. I myself have been developing for 10 years and I'm afraid that in this version only moderators read my proposal. In this option, there is no possibility of searching for ideas. Although the forum is called Ideas and Suggestions. How is a developer going to be able to find any idea if you've grouped them not by ideas, but by problems?

This is of course my opinion. I would ask the developer how he feels comfortable looking for ideas in this forum.

Based on the fact that I’ve seen dev posts (multiple in the same thread, even) multiple pages in on some of the longer threads (and yes, in the ideas & suggestions section), I would say yes, there is a very good chance that they read all of the posts, not just the OP or page 1 or something like that.

SerhiiS wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:31 am Do developers really read all comments on posts?

Of course.
Not.

… even me is not reading everything. There are clear signs that some devs have “their” subjects. Like boskid with trains. But as dev I wouldn’t bother. When it’s time to implement a new feature I would make a search for the subject and look for inspiration. Long and complicated stuff will have a lower chance to be looked over. Useless discussions will have a lower chance to be read, even if there are some hidden good ideas. Etc.

I think developers want to see posts sorted by suggestions/ideas. And you sorted them by problems.

I see my job as webmaster to keep discussion flowing and not to pre-work a developers job.

That’s not target of this board to make the work easier for devs. The target is to make it easier for the community. I admit that I struggle with that target also a lot. But what do you await from voluntary work?

And it’s ok to discuss the target direction of this board, but not in this thread.

ssilk wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:45 am Long and complicated stuff will have a lower chance to be looked over.

SerhiSS proposed a "simple" thing, just a warning message when canceling craft would spill item on the floor, the topic was merged with a similar suggestion but that initial similar suggestion had discussion rolling and other ideas and suggestions piling on making it look like a long a complicated stuff which could seem discouraging sorry i didn't help with that.

but @SerhiSS i'd like to point out that the more people from the community discuss about an idea the more likely it is to be noticed when/if a concensus was to emerge. Even if it's long and complicated , the train limit discussion was long and complicated before it was added, and the priority splitter had quite some discussion too.

ssilk wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:45 am I see my job as webmaster to keep discussion flowing and not to pre-work a developers job.

That’s not target of this board to make the work easier for devs. The target is to make it easier for the community

This may be source of lots of misconception. when reading suggestion there seem to be an effort from the community to try and "help" the devs, rather than just rant or complain, wether that is actually "helpful" or not is hard to tell from random people from the internet with various degree of self-awareness about their skill, but they seem to try !

I can't help noticing that the discussion is flowing, the discussion about that warning message that would pop up when cancelling craft would spill item

This gets off topic, but I think this is useful discussion.

mmmPI wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:56 am

ssilk wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:45 am Long and complicated stuff will have a lower chance to be looked over.

SerhiSS proposed a "simple" thing

True, but it’s now in the middle of the discussion. Which has been downvoted in the beginning. It would be better to move it into an own suggestion thread.

the more people from the community discuss about an idea the more likely it is to be noticed when/if a concensus was to emerge.

Also true. Especially over time threads have a higher chance. But that is my very subjective feeling about what suggestions come into vanilla.

ssilk wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:45 am That’s not target of this board to make the work easier for devs. The target is to make it easier for the community

This may be source of lots of misconception. when reading suggestion there seem to be an effort from the community to try and "help" the devs, rather than just rant or complain, wether that is actually "helpful" or not is hard to tell from random people from the internet with various degree of self-awareness about their skill, but they seem to try !

I can't help noticing that the discussion is flowing, the discussion about that warning message that would pop up when cancelling craft would spill item

Maybe I misunderstood that. (I didn’t get why people should not be helpful ) For me it’s clear, that a suggestion is much more times read, than implemented. That’s the reason why my focus is on good readability, not implementability.