Factorio Forums

MeduSalem wrote:

bobingabout wrote:Bottom line: Mods shouldn't be used as band-aid argument to encourage bad design choices.

Point on.
To all future complainers, it is the ideas and suggestion board! Not the modding discussion board

Now to the actual topic
Ill post a paper with all possible boiler footprints later

By the way, the heat exchanger can simply be used as a heater?! Anyone?

After your diagramm I'd still say that the Boiler-Heat-Exchanger thingy should be 1x3 for a simple reason:

It's easier to understand where the inputs and outputs are.

The same can't be said about a 1x1 item (neither about 2x2), which probably was the reason for why the Devs decided to change the footprint of the boiler to 2x3 in the first place so it becomes more obvious which side the water goes in/out and where the steam comes out. Though the 2x3 size has its own problems of being TOO bulky.

So 1x3 is probably the best compromise that results in interesting layout possibilities while still being pretty straight forward and self-explanatory on how to use it.

I agree.
My favorurites are 1x1 and 3x1/1x3, they are the only modular ones.
Everything with bigger footprints like 2x2 3x2 is asymetrical, bulky and weird for layouts.
The relatively big 3x2 seem too big for early game devices.

1x1 might be most modular and versatile but it lacks understandability as you said.
3x1 seems most convenient and understandable, its a big pipe with another across + alt symbols are more readable

Hm.


Just a though I throw in: Everyone assumes, that the heat exchanger has a direction. But pipes in Factorio have no direction. Or better: The direction is dependent on level/pressure. Which can change at every moment.

You are right.
Actually there are no flow restrictions and my schematics do not indicate that.
I actually meant to depicture examples.

The heat exchanger is an all purpose device which can be used for so many things:
- heat stationary and flowing fluids
- make steam if suitable pipe is connected from stationary or flowing water (at boiling temperature)
- serve as a heat exchanger which over time equals temperature of two crossing stationary or flowing fluids

By the way heat exchangers can be used for cooling, just as for heating of fluids.
It can be used as a sort of cooling tower without the tower.
We just never talked about a steam release, which a skokestack/cooling tower would serve as.

I hope that clears some issues

ssilk wrote:Just a though I throw in: Everyone assumes, that the heat exchanger has a direction.

I didn't assume that they have a fixed direction in which water flows through them. Water can come/leave from either side depending on the pressure. Normally it will flow from high pressure to lower pressure.

When the Heat Exchanger is used as Vaporizer a part of the water will be turned into Steam and leave through the Steam Output, leaving less water in the Heat Exchanger (reducing pressure... so more water will flow into the Heat Exchanger).

When the Heat Exchanger is really used as Heat Exchanger then the temperature between the two crossing fluids will be averaged, with a certain energy loss if you want since no Heat Exchanger is really perfect.

So basically I'm with Gertibrumm... there are no flow restrictions and the Heat Exchanger could hypothetically also be used for cooling a fluid.



[edit 1]

Has anyone thought about that maybe it should be 3 different items? Like so:

1. Evaporator/Boiler: Inputs a fluid and makes it hotter, if boiling point is reached it turns a liquid into a gas.
2. Condenser/Cooler: Inputs a fluid and makes it colder, if condensing point is reached it turns a gas into a liquid.
3. Heat-Exchanger: Crosses two fluid streams and averages their temperature. If boiling point of a liquid is reached it turns into a gas as output, if condensing point of a gas is reached it turns into a liquid as output

Or something like it. Might be worthwhile a thought. Might be already quite far off-topic though.


[edit 2]

Expanding the existing Fluid Temperature System with fluid properties that depend on a Temperature Range:

I have already mentioned in some other threads that "Steam" as its own fluid entity might actually be a bad idea anyways because it's basically still H2O, just above 100°C.

So maybe internally from a programmer's perspective it should be handled as one fluid, and if the fluid temperature reaches certain thresholds then certain fluid properties (name, colors, pressure, energy capacity, etc) change. So if water is heated beyond 100°C then the GUI displays "Steam" instead of "Water". If Steam is cooled down below 100°C the GUI displays "Water" again. The same goes for the sprite colors... if Water is above 100°C then the sprite colors change accordingly.

That way the water (or any other fluid) could be boiled endlessly way above 100°C or cooled down below 0°C (though maybe with diminishing return or a definitive upper/lower cap settings, the lower cap basically being when the fluid turns solid and blocks the pipe) ... so internally the fluid remains the same only the degrees go up/down and some fluid properties like GUI-names/graphics changed.

So what it could look like in the fluid prototypes would be something like this where internally it's the same fluid but it changes certain behaviour/properties depending on the temperature range:
(maybe I'm a bit out of shape when it comes to Lua, I'm sorry. Or maybe there's a better way to implement changing properties with temperature range. Basically multiple ranges should be possible, even below zero... or you could add a range for extremely high temperatures where the fluid basically enters a superfluid state or even a range for plasma or something like that.)

In my opinion that would be actually the most "beautiful" solution because it is quite universal as it doesn't convulute the game with multiple new fluid entities. Also it's a possible solution for the current Nuclear discussion anyways... because then the currently existing boilers could be left as they are (and they could heat beyond 100°C as well though extremely inefficient compared to a Nuclear Reactor because it would take a bazillion boilers to reach extreme temperatures)... and the devs could focus on developing heat exchangers especially for the use with Nuclear Reactor instead of trying to repurpose an existing item into an one-size-fits-all-item-solution.

If the devs decide to take it that way then a temperature sensor would be nice too which outputs the fluid temperature as integer so it can be handled by Circuit Network contraptions.

Also it would open new possibilities to modding with new ways of fluid handling based on fluid temperatures/states.

It's at least what I would do if I had something to say in the development process. Maybe I should make it its own thread/suggestion, I don't know. Let's see what ssilk has to say about it.

You have a point with "it is still H2O", but in real power plants (which I study right now) there is a distinct separation between water and steam. Actually steam behaves like air bubbles in water, gathering at the top which is not intended in factorio I guess.

When liquids evaporate there is no smooth transition to gas
Water for example holds its boiling temperature (pat=1bar) at 100°C until it is fully evaporated.
In coal powerplants there is a natural-circulation-boiler which forms steam bubbles inside the hot water, this separates at the top, water recirculates, steam builds pressure of lets say 100 bar which is further heated and used to power the turbine.
In factorio this steam separation happens in boilers, that is fine but you really only ever need one boiler in theory if you didn't also use it for heating itself.

Steam will form and raise the pressure in a closed system, this pressure will raise dramatically fast if completely enclosed -> steam-explosion (water also exceeds 100°C at this point)
In game we need pressure release valves in some way otherwise we will suffer from many disasters unless pipes endure ininite pressure.

Thats where your "Evaporator"/"Boiler" makes sense! It is a steam release and a separate device. (it actually has nothing to do with a heat exchanger)
I agree, the boiler should be a different device from the heat exchanger.
Your pressure sensor could be integrated into the steam release valve which in turn could be integrated into the boiler.

The heat exchanger would be the modular device for cooling and heating.

The coolingtower is basically a heat exchanger with a steam release valve set fully open so that water can cool down below 100°C (atmospheric pressure)

The water condensing part is necessary so that a pump can seal off pressure on the wrong side. Also the low temperature increases efficiency according to thermodynamics.


If anywone is interested I can elaborate further, explaining modern plant systems in detail and visual.

Yeah... I know that the transition is not "instant"... and that the state of a fluid (if it's liquid or fluid, etc) also depends on fluid pressure as well, not only temperature... But I think for the sake of a game we can simplify things a little bit and leave considerations like pressure and smooth transitions out.

Relying solely on temperature ranges to change between fluid states would be an interesting feature already.



That said I've the strong feeling that the devs are going to stay with what they've already presented in the Friday Facts anyways... so we are basically going in a circle and coming up with ideas for nothing.

Currently I'm a strong supporter of Steam Power instead of Solar, but I have this strange gut feeling that the entire change of the Boiler footprints to an ugly 2x3, the Nuclear Reactor footprint of 5x5 which leads to ugly patterns and layouts especially in tandem with the boiler size and that Steam is going to be its own fluid entity will probably be enough reason for me eventually to hop on the Solar Power wagon because of how I hate playing with game features that turn out half-baken.

For me there's a difference in between "giving things a puzzle-gameplay that's justified" AND "making things arbitrary/random so that they are awkward to use for no reason". It's hard to say where one thing ends and the other begins, but in the case of the Boiler change and Nuclear Reactors I somehow got triggered because I did some preliminary theory crafting in some design programs.

Basically did the same when they first came up with the idea of having Loaders to increase item throughput between belts and other entities but then they turned the entire idea into Stack Inserters instead and changed all the Stack Sizes with that and whatnot to "force" their purpose into the game when there actually was none, leaving some of the existing contraptions broken in the process because they depended on the original Inserter Behaviour. On top of that they still haven't implemented a way to change the stack size with circuit network signals to override the default behaviour so that the broken designs might become useful again.

Everytime something like that happens I'm somehow left a little bit more devastated, like a part inside of my Factorio-guy died back there.

So that's what's ultimatively going to happen if they implement it like they proposed it... Classic Steam Engine setup of 1:14:10 and 2:28:20 will be gone and the new size footprint won't allow as many Boiler/Steam Engines in the same space as before because of the changed footprint... and all that just because they want to repurpose the existing boiler instead of making the heat exchanger its own item that is especially designed to work with Nuclear Reactors (or other heat sources). Somehow leaves a bitter taste.

Sorry, but over the past few days some disillusion creeped in with me... Sometimes I have these kind of phases.

Maybe this is good to be as seperate mod or maybe optional chain that you can add.

The original smelting mechanic is better to remain the same.

Maybe optionally later you can add pipes and use the heat to produce power

Ill too let this discussion sit for a while and see what the devs are up to

As I have already said in FF thread.
It would be nice to separate water evaporator (boiler) device from heating device. It makes both devices' function clear. You might even have 2 different grades for boiler - for common say 200 dergees steam and for hight temperature high pressure one.
This also opens an opportunity to add multiple kinds of heater devices, such as coal/solid fuel, oil products, nuclear name it.

Also the boiler itself does not generate any pollution. It is the heater that does. So you might choose a cleaner one or maybe even implement one which makes use of modules to either increase its power (speed modules) or decrease pollution (efficiency modules).

You can even think about changing smelters to separate this as well so the smelting device stays the same but the heater will dictate its productivity by its output temperature or power.

About the size I am up for 3x1 size for boiler and 6x6 for nuclear plant for obvious reasons. Also making it 3x1 lets you use long handed inserters to feed reactor over the boiler and makes life much easier as a whole.

Decoupling heat generation from water boiling could definitely open up options for power generation.

Just as the intended form for nuclear power will be a reactor surrounded by boilers, the same can apply for other sources:

Coal/biomass: Burner next to a boiler.

Oil: Liquid burner next to a boiler. Could be combined into the above.

Geothermal: Specialised pumping station next to a boiler.

Solar-thermal: Bunch of heliostats (tracking mirrors) which bounce sunlight onto a boiler.

Energy reclamation: Build boilers next to your smelting furnaces and reclaim some of the waste heat to pre-heat water before the main heat source, reducing the amount of fuel needed to generate a given amount of steam. After all, we all love efficiency, don't we? I imagine it would be implemented by the furnaces having heat points around their edges with somewhat low temperatures.

Also, it provides opportunities for modders to add other power sources I haven't thought of yet.

Roxor128 wrote:Decoupling heat generation from water boiling could definitely open up options for power generation.

Just as the intended form for nuclear power will be a reactor surrounded by boilers, the same can apply for other sources:

Coal/biomass: Burner next to a boiler.

Oil: Liquid burner next to a boiler. Could be combined into the above.

Geothermal: Specialised pumping station next to a boiler.

Solar-thermal: Bunch of heliostats (tracking mirrors) which bounce sunlight onto a boiler.

Energy reclamation: Build boilers next to your smelting furnaces and reclaim some of the waste heat to pre-heat water before the main heat source, reducing the amount of fuel needed to generate a given amount of steam. After all, we all love efficiency, don't we? I imagine it would be implemented by the furnaces having heat points around their edges with somewhat low temperatures.

Also, it provides opportunities for modders to add other power sources I haven't thought of yet.

Also there could be furnaces for all fuel types.
Right now we have coal, wood, solid fuel which is actually processed crude oil.
But there should be possibilities to burn heavy and light oil and petroleum directly with varying pollution and flue gas byproducts (petrol being the cleanest)
though I have my doubts that this might be better off in a mod as it simply increases complexity without gaining gameplay content (only realism, reference to klonans comment on this thread)

I would add fracking to your list, just pump high pressure water into the ground next to a drained pump-jack



#----------------- my summary for the Boiler/Evaporater and the Heat Exchanger -------------------#

The heat exchangers applications are:
- closed circulations (which are realistic and not too easy solve (wanted complexity with the gain of endless possibilities))
- other heat carrier fluids, I am thinking of heavy oil (I allows for high temperatures being exchanged without building a lot of pressure in the pipes), especially for reactor circulations which raise the heat of water to unsafe levels.
- cooling
- flue gas waste heat recovery, preheat water (Economizer)

The boilers/evaporaters purpose would either be:
- function as an evaporater for water -> needs water circulating systems (pump + offshore pump + heat exchanger) and is basically a huge tank, half full with hot water and steam accumulates at the top
OR:
- function as an evaporator AND furnace to heat water (in this case the 2x3 footprint is understandable) -> doesn't need water circulation as the heat generation happens localy


#-------------------------- my conclusion for this topic ----------------------------#

- The pipe system should be comparable to the belt system, simple devices, simple tasks for each device, endless options for rearrangement!
-- that means separation of tasks, not all-in-one building blocks!

-- the proposed new boiler is an all in one device which should be separated into heat exchanger and boiler/evaporater (for modularity and more advanced systems)

-- I see the heat exchanger like the inserter: transfer heat from pipe-A to pipe-B

-- the reactor is a simple heat generator + with all the preliminary stages of uranium enrichment (very nice)

--- the lack of a Heat Exchanger annihilates all the degree of difficulty of the actual power plant setup (please make the Heat Exchanger official)
the heat exchanger is needed for everything above most basic inefficient steam engine power plants. It is necessary for waste heat recovery and cooling (the turbine doesn't work without it, just like the assembler doesn't work without inserters)

--- the cooling tower which is talked about: nobody ever mentioned fresh water supply which is basically circulating system which needs heat exchangers and evaporators/boilers of some sort

--- steam engines do not necessarily need cooling towers if the efficiency is sufficient, advanced systems (with heat exchangers respectivly ) would increase efficiency and power output

--- turbines need cooling systems, as the steam expansion is not enough to condense the water -> condensed water necessary to seal
(turbines do not simply work like steam engines and NEED water in liquid form at the end of the process. reusing this hot water in a closed cycle simply adds efficiency but is very advanced)

---- a dull smoke emitting concrete pillar for the cooling tower is worst case of factorioness with no modularity ! (and no room for creativity) At least incooperate the Heat Exchanger into the cooling tower recipe



The whole "boiler/evaporater, heat exchanger" discussion is redundant if the devs do not car about modularity, multipurpose devices, logic, the complexity that goes into power plants (realism) and all the possible setups that could be made!