Factorio Forums

The developers made their point and this thread should be closed.

steinio wrote:The developers made their point and this thread should be closed.

Why does it have to be closed? Why can't people enjoy a discussion anyway even if the devs wont change their stance on the subject?

Anybody who thinks the topic is pointless could simply not read or take part in it.
That's one of the joys of having the freedom to choose what you do on the internet.

I find the lack of sales a fascinating concept. The psychology of buying and humanity's reaction to marketing is very interesting to me.

I've seen the lack of sales in other places.(JC Penney tried it in 2012 and it failed. NB: JC Penney demographic is definitely not the same as factorio's.) The theory is that sales are a form a advertising and hype. I know I love getting a good deal. 10% off? I feel like I won something! I should tell my friend! Oh, that sale has limited time, I should buy it RIGHT FREAKING NOW. So, yes, they do generate income because you'll get more sales.

Some of the downside of sales is that you can get too big, too fast. Yes, that is a problem. Go research any Kickstarter that got MASSIVELY over-funded. They didn't know how to handle it. It's similar, not the same, to people who become too famous too fast and lose their minds.

Another downside is the *kind* of customer you get. If you want a fully-engaged customer, you have to make them pay for it. I can't find the exact link I'm looking for, but there's studies to show that paying for something makes you like it more, sort of as a post-purchase rationalization. If you pay for a course, you're more likely to complete it, etc. The barrier to entry creates a different kind of customer/participant and then they're more committed when they're in it.

See also Three Reasons Why We Buy Those Crazy Steam Bundles
Sunk Costs, Pre-Orders, and Game Over

I'll be fascinated to see how this works for factorio. IMO, with a community-based game that factorio is (and it is, see all the mods and the activity here and in the subreddit) that no-sales is a completely valid strategy. For a different type of player base, it may not be valid.

mooklepticon wrote:So, yes, they do generate income because you'll get more sales.

it only works super well when the product for sale is considered expensive in the first place, where the Consumer might be interested in shaving the price down.

your JCpenny example - the Consumers buying there are certainly different - but that garbage is all hilariously overpriced in the first place. so no wonder people jump at sales, they know it's expensive for what it is.

steinio wrote:The developers made their point and this thread should be closed.

Yeah I'm going to disagree with this as well, It's not about continuing an argument, closing it is quite draconian "WE SAY NO : LOCKED" all that does is foster negative vibes.

Also I enjoyed the suggestions for negative sales, made me smile

Killavirus wrote:

steinio wrote:The developers made their point and this thread should be closed.

Yeah I'm going to disagree with this as well, It's not about continuing an argument, closing it is quite draconian "WE SAY NO : LOCKED" all that does is foster negative vibes.

Also I enjoyed the suggestions for negative sales, made me smile

Don't worry, we don't close threads unless there is some toxic behavior brewing

Klonan wrote:

Killavirus wrote:

steinio wrote:The developers made their point and this thread should be closed.

Yeah I'm going to disagree with this as well, It's not about continuing an argument, closing it is quite draconian "WE SAY NO : LOCKED" all that does is foster negative vibes.

Also I enjoyed the suggestions for negative sales, made me smile

Don't worry, we don't close threads unless there is some toxic behavior brewing

This is literally what makes your company and forums so nice. The hardest task will be keeping that ethos with growth. Fingers crossed and all that jazz
Many thanks for al the extra time and work put in, but all the staff team and moderators If your ever near Gatwick, feel free to demand I swing by and buy you a pint !!!! (yup i mean that)

I bought Factorio at $20 USD. A week later, I gifted two copies to my brothers. The value in this game is absolutely insane. The mods and community are a dream. I love the game, and I'll get more play out of it than 5-10 games that cost $60, without question - probably much, much more.

While it would be cool to get more exposure for the game - there's something I think we should all keep in mind. Folks that enjoy this niche - we will find the game just by virtue of it being on steam - tags and Queues and ratings have made it easier than ever to find your virtual crack these days. There just aren't that many great games currently in genre, imo, and Factorio stands out so well right now.

I'm somebody who has binged hard in the past during Steam sales (winter); many of those games I've bought I haven't even played yet. I just spent a lot more money on games during those sales than I would otherwise have.

In my opinion, going into a Steam sale with your game is a way of advertising the game (same with going into the Humble Store sale or participating in a Humble Bundle). It has nothing to do with dishonesty towards those who have bought the game at full price.

If "sales" made people mad for that reason (that they might have paid "full" price earlier), then no clothing store would ever have sales for fear of their customers not returning -- but they have sales all the time.

Same with Black Friday in the USA, I haven't heard that it makes people mad at the companies that are throwing stuff at them. To the contrary, people go on a shopping frenzy that day.

Since you've now put your foot down and firmly stated that there will never be a sale of the game, it's probably very moot to discuss the point. I personally think it's a missed opportunity for cheap advertising and generating a lot more sales in the long term.

(The Kerbal Space Program developers, for example, have stated that the Steam sales are a huge, huge, part of their revenue, and they would probably not be able to sustain themselves with regular sales of the game only. While that is obviously very different with Factorio, it shows how big an impact those sales can have for an Indie game.)

The cheapest KSP sale in the past couple years has been $18. Factorio is priced similarly, all the time.

DaveMcW wrote:The cheapest KSP sale in the past couple years has been $18. Factorio is priced similarly, all the time.

Yes, your point being?

The games are different, they have different prices, the numbers at play are absolutely not the issue here; it's about the general question if regular sales are good for a game like Factorio (for me the answer is "yes, clearly").

Both games (KSP and Factorio) cater to an arguably quite similar player base, and the KSP devs made the statement that I cited, which is why I picked it as my example.

Klonan wrote:

Sean Mirrsen wrote:I understand the position you're taking with this, but the yearly sales on Steam are typically great ways to advertise. Even a "sale" of like 5% off would allow you to get on the list of games on the front page, which is extra visibility.

Of course, if you don't actually need the extra visibility on Steam... well, you're the boss, boss.
It's not like Factorio is hard to find on Steam. It's somewhere near the top even by Steam's own score system.

It isn't about visibility or sales, its about respecting the players who have already purchased the game. We don't want to reward the people who hold off on buying the game, the game is a price we find reasonable, and this is the deal. If you think it is priced too high, then it is your choice to not purchase, and we hope that with enough time, and extra development, we will be able to convince you of its value.

Sorry, but that logic is nonsense. Everyday consumers buy products, including games, which later go on sale (or even have permanent price reductions) - it is part of normal practice, and claiming that it shows a lack of respect, or 'rewards' people who hold off is bizarre at best. Why not either admit that you simple can't be bothered organising the sale, or can't afford to drop your price (even though it would increase business), or are afraid of some poor feedback? Your answer is disingenuous at best, and shows a lack of respect for your customer's intelligence.

kovarex wrote:Not having a sale ever is part of our philosophy. In short term, they are good and bring extra money, but we are targeting long term. I believe that searching for sales is wasted time, and people should decide on the price and value, but putting option of wasting time to search for deals or waiting seems like bad part of the equation.
As an example I would like to mention Minecraft. I'm not aware of any sale of it

Minecraft started out cheaper than its current price, with a clear announcement of intention to increase in price as they neared release - which they stuck to. Also, it has had a 2-for-1 offer, and has been on sale (by small amounts) via third parties (keysellers getting bulk deals from Mojang, and then selling on at lower cost than a direct sale from Mojang), which Mojang has been generally supportive of. They also haven't been daft enough to rule out ever having a sale, should they decide that the time is right to do so.

Regardless of these points, however, I thank you for your explicit price guarantee, and look forwards to seeing the game *never* reduce in price, lest you invite legal action from every existing customer. That doesn't sound like a great long term plan to me.

SmartBadger wrote:I thank you for your explicit price guarantee, and look forwards to seeing the game *never* reduce in price, lest you invite legal action from every existing customer. That doesn't sound like a great long term plan to me.

I'm pretty sure there is no grounds for "legal action" against Wube, should they ever lower the sale price of the game. You are obviously not a lawyer, and probably not familiar with European (or Czech) commercial law. (NB there are no "class action" lawsuits in Europe, and it's safe to say that no individual customer will go to court because Factorio is on sale, if that was even feasible.)

There is no reason why a product like Factorio should lose temporarily some of its value.
Discounting something means "We know we're regularly selling this for too much, so we lower the price for a few days so that those who won't pay the excessive price we usually charge can buy the product for its legitimate value". (This does not count for physical stuff companies HAVE to discount if they want to sell excessive stock).

The devs thinking "there will be no sale because we think the game is priced at the correct value" is a mark of respect, not of disrespect towards the customer.

Koub wrote:There is no reason why a product like Factorio should lose temporarily some of its value.
Discounting something means "We know we're regularly selling this for too much, so we lower the price for a few days so that those who won't pay the excessive price we usually charge can buy the product for its legitimate value". (This does not count for physical stuff companies HAVE to discount if they want to sell excessive stock).

The devs thinking "there will be no sale because we think the game is priced at the correct value" is a mark of respect, not of disrespect towards the customer.

Oh, wow.

Putting something on sale does not mean it is losing value. Not temporarily and not permanently. The value of something is very much what you (the customer/consumer) attribute to it. I've enjoyed Factorio a lot, and that gave it tremendous value for me, and it's not even remotely correlated to what I've paid for the game originally.

There is no natural "price" for something that you want to sell. In a transparent market, where price finding is possible, there might be mechanisms that you can employ to find the "right price", but in the end the right price is what the consumer is willing to pay (not more, not less), or maybe what maximizes your total earnings.

Putting something on sale can be done for all sorts of reasons. You make it sound as if the only reason was to admit that your "original price" was too high. You also mention a "legitimate value", which does not really exist, at least it's different for every single customer and it's also not the same as the "price" of the product.

It has been mentioned before, putting something on sale does not display disrespect to anybody. Stuff goes on sale ALL THE TIME, it's completely natural in a free market economy.

Wube's stance on this ("the price is fixed at 20 at it will remain that way") is fine, but it's not better or worse than many other strategies. As far as I'm concerned they could even hold a daily auction for Factorio keys and display the current price on the home page for the game.

I'd also like to add that the game is not even finished yet. So when you pay for it, you couldn't even know the theoretical end "value" (if that was a thing), because "value" is being added with every patch. If we took this to the logical conclusion, with value being added almost daily, the price of the game should increase accordingly.
Or otherwise the late buyers could feel superior to the early buyers because they defininitely got more value when they bought compared to, say, early Kickstarter backers.

siggboy wrote:I'm pretty sure there is no grounds for "legal action" against Wube, should they ever lower the sale price of the game. You are obviously not a lawyer, and probably not familiar with European (or Czech) commercial law. (NB there are no "class action" lawsuits in Europe, and it's safe to say that no individual customer will go to court because Factorio is on sale, if that was even feasible.)

and you are obviously not good at detecting humour. Also, in certain areas in europe, there are 'small claims' courts or consumer courts which exist to handle issues like this, should someone decide to pursue it. My point was that making bold claims about the future, and claiming it was for the customer's benefit, is not a good approach to business.

siggboy wrote:

Koub wrote:There is no reason why a product like Factorio should lose temporarily some of its value.
Discounting something means "We know we're regularly selling this for too much, so we lower the price for a few days so that those who won't pay the excessive price we usually charge can buy the product for its legitimate value". (This does not count for physical stuff companies HAVE to discount if they want to sell excessive stock).

The devs thinking "there will be no sale because we think the game is priced at the correct value" is a mark of respect, not of disrespect towards the customer.

Oh, wow.

Putting something on sale does not mean it is losing value. Not temporarily and not permanently. The value of something is very much what you (the customer/consumer) attribute to it. I've enjoyed Factorio a lot, and that gave it tremendous value for me, and it's not even remotely correlated to what I've paid for the game originally.

There is no natural "price" for something that you want to sell. In a transparent market, where price finding is possible, there might be mechanisms that you can employ to find the "right price", but in the end the right price is what the consumer is willing to pay (not more, not less), or maybe what maximizes your total earnings.

Putting something on sale can be done for all sorts of reasons. You make it sound as if the only reason was to admit that your "original price" was too high. You also mention a "legitimate value", which does not really exist, at least it's different for every single customer and it's also not the same as the "price" of the product.

It has been mentioned before, putting something on sale does not display disrespect to anybody. Stuff goes on sale ALL THE TIME, it's completely natural in a free market economy.

Wube's stance on this ("the price is fixed at 20 at it will remain that way") is fine, but it's not better or worse than many other strategies. As far as I'm concerned they could even hold a daily auction for Factorio keys and display the current price on the home page for the game.

I'd also like to add that the game is not even finished yet. So when you pay for it, you couldn't even know the theoretical end "value" (if that was a thing), because "value" is being added with every patch. If we took this to the logical conclusion, with value being added almost daily, the price of the game should increase accordingly.
Or otherwise the late buyers could feel superior to the early buyers because they defininitely got more value when they bought compared to, say, early Kickstarter backers.

All well said.

When the devs start talking like this, it worries me, because it suggests a lack of business sense - or at least a basic lack of understanding about how selling a product actually works. I'd hate to see a good game suffer because of business blunders, but I don't trust that the Factorio devs know how to avoid making silly business mistakes.

SmartBadger wrote:

siggboy wrote:I'm pretty sure there is no grounds for "legal action" against Wube, should they ever lower the sale price of the game. You are obviously not a lawyer, and probably not familiar with European (or Czech) commercial law. (NB there are no "class action" lawsuits in Europe, and it's safe to say that no individual customer will go to court because Factorio is on sale, if that was even feasible.)

and you are obviously not good at detecting humour.

I've said that about other people, but there you go

When the devs start talking like this, it worries me, because it suggests a lack of business sense - or at least a basic lack of understanding about how selling a product actually works. I'd hate to see a good game suffer because of business blunders, but I don't trust that the Factorio devs know how to avoid making silly business mistakes.

Well, they've sold a lot already, and it has been stated that there is plenty of money in the coffers, for now. Also, some of the devs seem to be veritable coding beasts, so their small team seems to be more than capable to polish this game all to the end and beyond (they just need to hire a UI designer, but that's it, there should be money for that).

Other than that, it shouldn't really be our concern how much money they make, or don't make, due to business savviness or lack thereof. In any case, I was happy to get what I got when I've paid my 20, anything beyond that I've already considered a bonus. The game was worth the money when I bought it (shortly after Steam release).

I'm not business savvy, just looking at this from the outside with a modest amount of life experience. Not going on a sale, ever, based on some quirky principle, does not make sense to me (I also think that decision was effectively made by a single person *cough* Kovarex *cough*, and not really out of a deeper sense of business direction or planning -- that's just my personal feeling mind you).

sale? it's $20. after playing the demo i would have paid $40. playing sandbox i would have paid more.
in my opinion @ $20 the game is on sale 100% of the time!

and to those trendy people who buy games then demand a refund, i say...

REFUND!?

SmartBadger wrote:

Klonan wrote:

Sean Mirrsen wrote:I understand the position you're taking with this, but the yearly sales on Steam are typically great ways to advertise. Even a "sale" of like 5% off would allow you to get on the list of games on the front page, which is extra visibility.

Of course, if you don't actually need the extra visibility on Steam... well, you're the boss, boss.
It's not like Factorio is hard to find on Steam. It's somewhere near the top even by Steam's own score system.

It isn't about visibility or sales, its about respecting the players who have already purchased the game. We don't want to reward the people who hold off on buying the game, the game is a price we find reasonable, and this is the deal. If you think it is priced too high, then it is your choice to not purchase, and we hope that with enough time, and extra development, we will be able to convince you of its value.

Sorry, but that logic is nonsense. Everyday consumers buy products, including games, which later go on sale (or even have permanent price reductions) - it is part of normal practice, and claiming that it shows a lack of respect, or 'rewards' people who hold off is bizarre at best. Why not either admit that you simple can't be bothered organising the sale, or can't afford to drop your price (even though it would increase business), or are afraid of some poor feedback? Your answer is disingenuous at best, and shows a lack of respect for your customer's intelligence.

kovarex wrote:Not having a sale ever is part of our philosophy. In short term, they are good and bring extra money, but we are targeting long term. I believe that searching for sales is wasted time, and people should decide on the price and value, but putting option of wasting time to search for deals or waiting seems like bad part of the equation.
As an example I would like to mention Minecraft. I'm not aware of any sale of it

Minecraft started out cheaper than its current price, with a clear announcement of intention to increase in price as they neared release - which they stuck to. Also, it has had a 2-for-1 offer, and has been on sale (by small amounts) via third parties (keysellers getting bulk deals from Mojang, and then selling on at lower cost than a direct sale from Mojang), which Mojang has been generally supportive of. They also haven't been daft enough to rule out ever having a sale, should they decide that the time is right to do so.

Regardless of these points, however, I thank you for your explicit price guarantee, and look forwards to seeing the game *never* reduce in price, lest you invite legal action from every existing customer. That doesn't sound like a great long term plan to me.

But it sounds like you are unhappy for not being able to buy Factorio with a lower price, more than you are truly worrying about their business sense.

siggboy wrote:I also think that decision was effectively made by a single person *cough* Kovarex *cough*, and not really out of a deeper sense of business direction or planning

While it sounds legit because he is the boss, I think Michaela from their team also helps a lot.

Mooncat wrote:But it sounds like you are unhappy for not being able to buy Factorio with a lower price, more than you are truly worrying about their business sense.

I don't think he minds that he might have missed an opportunity to save 10 bucks. It's really actually about the fact that the firm stance of Wube with regards to their "no sale ever policy" and the reasons given for it don't really resonate with a person who's thinking about turning a profit or just operating like most of the commercial world does.

At any rate, the reasoning that "going on sale" might make the product look "cheap" or disenfranchise customers who have paid full price is really weird by any standard, and it's the reason why were still having this discussion.

Of course we're also having the discussion because it's fun to have it (like most of the discussions you're having here after you're past the FAQ phase).

siggboy wrote:I also think that decision was effectively made by a single person *cough* Kovarex *cough*, and not really out of a deeper sense of business direction or planning

While it sounds legit because he is the boss, I think Michaela from their team also helps a lot.

Yeah, sure, whatever . As I've said, it's their decision, I've bought the game already, I'm only looking at it from an academic, moot point of view. What I was getting it was that some people might feel that a lot of philosophical discussion and thinking has gone into the pricing policy that is at work now. But honestly I think it was simply decided at some point that "20" is a nice round number and "let's not ever change it because reasons" and that was basically it. Of course when you're then asked why you're not going on sale, you have to give some kind of answer -- and the answers that were given really sound to me like the whole thing hasn't really every been thought through.

(All of which is my personal speculation.)