Factorio Forums

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system.

The point would be to show that they require power and you need to do something to provide it, just like everything else in the game (except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

So...tedium for the sake of tedium?

Hexicube wrote:

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:Conveyor belts would require such a minute amount of power that it would be pointless to even include such a system.

The point would be to show that they require power and you need to do something to provide it, just like everything else in the game (except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

So...tedium for the sake of tedium?

If it was in the game from the start you wouldn't consider it tedium. It would just be a matter of providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!).

The fact is, you already have electricity pylons touching most, if not all of your conveyer belts so there would be no "tedium" at all, just more immersion (immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games) because an electric device would need to be provided with electricity.

I am honestly amazed how many people are determined to argue that a specific electrical device should not require electricity simply because that's how it happens to be during the Alpha phase of the game. I think this is more about people just being used to how it is and not wanting it to change.

MalcolmCooks wrote: Also
It took me a little while of playing the game just to figure out basic automation, and getting belts and burner inserters to work properly together. Once you learn this, the burner stage of technology can be pretty much skipped and you can go straight away to using electricity, but for beginner players I think it is crucial to learning the basic game mechanics. If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

*facepalm* does no one get that they could just make this into and expert mode option that would make everything need power (so new players dont have to have every thing require power., There could also be a burner conveyor belt that would need coal and not electricity and like everything else it would be upgraded.

DrEthan wrote:

MalcolmCooks wrote: Also
It took me a little while of playing the game just to figure out basic automation, and getting belts and burner inserters to work properly together. Once you learn this, the burner stage of technology can be pretty much skipped and you can go straight away to using electricity, but for beginner players I think it is crucial to learning the basic game mechanics. If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

*facepalm* does no one get that they could just make this into and expert mode option that would make everything need power (so new players dont have to have every thing require power., There could also be a burner conveyor belt that would need coal and not electricity and like everything else it would be upgraded.

I agree, but I think these features should be a part of the base game. It's not like having to power everything instead of most things would propel the game's complexity level into the stratosphere. People are acting like this change would wildly affect the game's level of complexity and that's just obviously false. I see it as a very subtle but necessary change to the game before it reaches beta.

If I end up having to mod the game or play an "expert mode" just to have everything work as it should (ie - electrical devices require electricity) it will just feel like the base game wasn't properly completed.

Conveyer belts that run on pure magic are immersion breaking and feel silly.

Kaiji wrote:

MalcolmCooks wrote:If electricity was required to make belts work, the learning curve would be a lot more difficult.

The learning curve already includes learning to provide everything with power. I don't see why a new player would be stumped by the idea of providing conveyer belts with power if they're able to wrap their head around the idea of providing everything else with power.

Because instead of learning to do them one after another, you have to learn them together.

Kaiji wrote:(except water pumps, which also need to be addressed).

Just... no. How are you going to get water into your steam engines to make electricity if the pump needs electricity? What do you want, a burner water pump that you replace after using for one second? Ridiculous.
These devices are not powered because it would just add a layer of annoyance and add nothing to the gameplay.

DrEthan wrote:expert mode option

make a mod for it. there's your "expert" mode option.

MalcolmCooks wrote:Because instead of learning to do them one after another, you have to learn them together.

Yeah, really mindshattering stuff.

It's OK though... I came up with a solution

Tutorial: "Ensure your conveyer belt is connected to your electricity supply".

Hopefully that won't make too many people's minds implode. "Wh... What........... Provide a conveyer belt with electricity??? Damn... I thought this was a good game but that is just way beyond my intellectual capability... I quit!"

Kaiji wrote:What do you want, a burner water pump that you replace after using for one second?

No, but a burner water pump that requires coal to function would be a good solution. You already provide your burners with coal, so it would be no problem to also provide the pump with coal. That way you increase immersion with no negative side effects whatsoever (aside from those you arbitrarily make up because you 're determined to argue for specific machines not needing power).

Kaiji wrote:If it was in the game from the start you wouldn't consider it tedium. It would just be a matter of providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!).

The fact is, you already have electricity pylons touching most, if not all of your conveyer belts so there would be no "tedium" at all, just more immersion (immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games) because an electric device would need to be provided with electricity.

I am honestly amazed how many people are determined to argue that a specific electrical device should not require electricity simply because that's how it happens to be during the Alpha phase of the game. I think this is more about people just being used to how it is and not wanting it to change.

1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.
2. I would consider hooking literally every tiny piece massively tedious, currently there's a good balance of "anything that performs a complex function requires power"...and yes, inserters perform a complex function, grabbing a moving item is hard.
3. The fact that belts already touch power poles is a reason to NOT implement such a system that would needlessly burden the CPU and reduce the UPS.
4. I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.
5. Previous versions of the game had no influence on my opinion, I got it within the past couple of weeks.

There's two scenarios where a belt would not be connected by at least one tile to the power grid:
1. Very early game, where you might not even have a power grid yet
2. After a biter attack takes out a piece of belt, in which case the belt system breaks regardless

If you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

Next time, don't use a condescending tone.
Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

Hexicube wrote:1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.

I don't believe you. I don't think you would have given it a second thought. I don't think anyone would. An electrical device needing electricity is exactly what everyone would expect to happen, since electrical devices need electricity.

Hexicube wrote:I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.

Absolutely. I enjoy games that have minimal immersion breaking elements. You clearly don't consider that to be as much of a concern as I do, and that's fine.

My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

Hexicube wrote:IIf you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

It really tires me when people use this arguing technique on the internet. Oh you want 'X feature' to be in the game? Well how would you like it if they put in 'X feature' to the millionth power?? Huh!? Now how do you feel about X feature?".

It doesn't strengthen your argument. It makes it clear that you need to obfuscate mine in order to counter it.

Hexicube wrote:Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

I disagree. I think immersion is one of the most important aspects of game development. In a game where almost everything requires power except one or two things that run on pure magic, the immersion needs attention and adjustment.

Hexicube wrote:Next time, don't use a condescending tone.

I prefer "forthright".

Hexicube wrote:Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. This discussion is about whether an electrical device should require electricity. I don't presume to know anything about you other than your opinion on this subject.

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:1. If I knew it was in the game from the start, I would have complained almost immediately because it would either be unrealistically power intensive or pointless to have that requirement.

I don't believe you. I don't think you would have given it a second thought. I don't think anyone would. An electrical device needing electricity is exactly what everyone would expect to happen, since electrical devices need electricity.

I feel that the game currently has a very nicely designed early game with a lot of branching options available, forcing the player to immediately dive into steam power for the simplest of automation (bear in mind burner inserters exist which need no power grid) would be a little limiting and would have detracted from that.

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:I'm determined to argue that belts should not require power for the same reason you're determined to argue they should: Preferences.

Absolutely. I enjoy games that have minimal immersion breaking elements. You clearly don't consider that to be as much of a concern as I do, and that's fine.

My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

And I hope that they spend the time that would be spent adding such a feature elsewhere, because most people wouldn't even notice such a change except when it impacts their UPS.

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:IIf you want to take your immersion ideas further, maybe we should require research to build belts that involves electromagnets for the motors at each end?
Maybe every reasonably complex device should require being connected by a substation since that would handle voltage conversion, and is therefore immersive?
How about requiring gun turrets to have some advanced prerequisite technology that would signify being able to track enemies but not also kill you, since that would be not magic?
Perhaps we should have biters instantly kill you since they take your entire arm off if you lack armour, as that would be immersive too?
Why not just go all the way and have every building take multiple game days to finish, with an extended mini-game where you puts all the parts in place?

It really tires me when people use this arguing technique on the internet. Oh you want 'X feature' to be in the game? Well how would you like it if they put in 'X feature' to the millionth power?? Huh!? Now how do you feel about X feature?".

It doesn't strengthen your argument. It makes it clear that you need to obfuscate mine in order to counter it.

You brushed off my counter-argument that belts require so little power you could assume they already have a way of producing it, I may as well attempt a different argument.

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:Immersion isn't something you can just throw around as a reason for a change.

I disagree. I think immersion is one of the most important aspects of game development. In a game where almost everything requires power except one or two things that run on pure magic, the immersion needs attention and adjustment.

Immersion is only beneficial when it doesn't impact other elements of the game.

Kaiji wrote:

Hexicube wrote:Next time, don't use a condescending tone.

I prefer "forthright".

Hexicube wrote:Also, don't act like I don't know anything, you'd be surprised.

I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. This discussion is about whether an electrical device should require electricity. I don't presume to know anything about you other than your opinion on this subject.

Neither of the following sections of the post I replied to are either "forthright" or not implying intellectual superiority:

Kaiji wrote:providing an electrical device with electricity (I know... what a bizarre concept!)

(immersion is a good thing in games. Breaking immersion is a bad thing in games)

As a new player, I would have complained about it too. There's an inherent logical discontinuity on the idea that: 1) to set up a functioning electrical network, you need belts and water pumps 2) for belts and water pumps to work, you need a functioning electrical network. That discontinuity in the gameplay flow does more to break "immersion" than thinking for a second "it's a little bit strange that the conveyer belts move one their own". Especially when there are other things like burner inserters, being able to apparantly sense an item in front of it and pick it up, when they are powered by coal and have no electronics inside. If such a contraption is possible with just mechanical components, I don't know how it would be done. There are actually lots of examples of this all across Factorio, but because the game has its own consistent internal logic to these things, suspension of disbelief allows you to ignore it and enjoy the game.

MalcolmCooks wrote:suspension of disbelief allows you to ignore it and enjoy the game.

A game that forces the player to either make a conscious decision to ignore it's immersion breaking elements or otherwise have their immersion broken could have been designed better.

I agree with Hexicube's point about burner inserters knowing that an item needs to be picked up while being coal powered, but at least you have to supply them with power. If it just did it automatically without any power supply at all that would be silly, as it is with conveyer belts.

It seems very odd to me that such a complex, skillfully developed game featuring dozens of machines that all require a player-provided power supply can include such a whacky ill-fitting feature as conveyer belts that run on pure magic. It really seems like the devs painted themselves into a corner.

Guess I have no choice but to wait for a mod since it's clear that the community is strongly attached to the idea of magical conveyer belts.

Disappointing.

There are so many illogical things you implicitly accept with the game I just don't get why you're so obsessed with this one.
- Stacks of 50 assembling machines in your toolbelt
- The fact that 2 side to side radars double their range
- The tank with its 100 explosive shells you carry in your backpack, and you put on the ground like it's a capsule from Dragon Ball
- The fact that you need 2 entire iron plates to build a single gear wheel
- ... while you only need 5 iron wheels and 3 electronic circuits is enough to build a building size assembling machine
- ... machine you can build in half a second
- You don't eat, drink, pee and poop, and you don't need sleep either
- One piece of wood in factorio is 4 MJ worth of energy. Wood being around 16MJ/kg, one piece of wood in Factorio is 250g. So a power pole contains only 250g of wood
- One wooden chest, made with 500g of wood, can carry 16 stacks of whatever you want.
- A single basic copper cable can carry infinite power without being utterly vaporized.
- You can make a 1m wide wall with 5 stone bricks
- You need only 1 steel plate, 1 stone and half an iron plate to build a pair of 2m long traight rails
- While you need 5 steel plates and one iron plate to build a steel pickaxe.
- Infinite water
- 100% pure ore. Always the purest ore.

And so much more. But you know what ? The game is much more enjoyable like it is than it would be if everything was realistic.

- The fact that 2 side to side radars double their range

Wait really? Twice the radius, as in 4 times the area?

bobucles wrote:

- The fact that 2 side to side radars double their range

Wait really? Twice the radius, as in 4 times the area?

Yes, that's an error. 2 radars only have double the scan rate but still the same range, which is how it works in the real world too, I think.

Kaiji wrote:

MalcolmCooks wrote:suspension of disbelief allows you to ignore it and enjoy the game.

A game that forces the player to either make a conscious decision to ignore it's immersion breaking elements or otherwise have their immersion broken could have been designed better.

I agree with Hexicube's point about burner inserters knowing that an item needs to be picked up while being coal powered, but at least you have to supply them with power. If it just did it automatically without any power supply at all that would be silly, as it is with conveyer belts.

It seems very odd to me that such a complex, skillfully developed game featuring dozens of machines that all require a player-provided power supply can include such a whacky ill-fitting feature as conveyer belts that run on pure magic. It really seems like the devs painted themselves into a corner.

Guess I have no choice but to wait for a mod since it's clear that the community is strongly attached to the idea of magical conveyer belts.

Disappointing.

Ikr it is so sad i was hoping that the community would get out of their thinking, For example what if the devs started out with the first inserter being really slow (like the first conveyor belt) but it doesnt run on any energy and is magic, and then a few months later after all the players got used to the idea of the magic inserter the devs wanted to make it need coal to run, at first everyone would probably act the same as they are now about the conveyor belts, being like "But... but thats another coal line that i have to make in early game and i dont want to do that, i like it being magic." but then the devs just implemented it anyway and some people got mad and quit but then another few months later all that dies down and the new players (and probably the old players that quit because as a great meme once said "one does not just quit factorio") that get the game cant possibly think how it was to have the first inserter not needing coal. So this is what i hope happens with the conveyor belts that this will get implemented (the conveyor belts needing energy) and every one will get used to the idea and actually laugh that they once thought that it would be blasphemy to have conveyor belts that required energy.

Kaiji wrote:My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

Immersion at the cost of playability is a very very bad idea.

And that is the main problem here. The miniscule amount of immersion this might give is completely outweight by the amount of playability the current belts that don't need any energy give.

So this is really not something that needs to be in the base version. I dare say even that this should never be implemented in the base game because the downsides are much bigger than the advantages, which are nearly non existent.

Yinan wrote:

Kaiji wrote:My hope is that the devs understand that maximizing immersion is a very very good idea.

Immersion at the cost of playability is a very very bad idea.

And that is the main problem here. The miniscule amount of immersion this might give is completely outweight by the amount of playability the current belts that don't need any energy give.

So this is really not something that needs to be in the base version. I dare say even that this should never be implemented in the base game because the downsides are much bigger than the advantages, which are nearly non existent.

we arnt saying that you would have to give energy to every single conveyor belt we are saying that you just have to power one end of the conveyor belt for it to work. (atleast i am not)

daniel34 wrote:

bobucles wrote:

- The fact that 2 side to side radars double their range

Wait really? Twice the radius, as in 4 times the area?

Yes, that's an error. 2 radars only have double the scan rate but still the same range, which is how it works in the real world too, I think.

My bad, I thought it was the case - and I always found that very illogical

DrEthan wrote:we arnt saying that you would have to give energy to every single conveyor belt we are saying that you just have to power one end of the conveyor belt for it to work. (atleast i am not)

Which doesn't change anything I was saying. The Problems with that have already been stated by others here, so this idea would still decrease playmability, which is much more important than immersion.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-- Arthur C. Clarke

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

What I want to say: The story plays into the future. And for anybody, who has problems with the immersion of the game should think about what people from the early 17th century had said about airplanes in their times.